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My parents didn't have kids until they could afford them. They were in their mid-30s when I was born. If I'd been raised in poverty because they had kids at 1

by khafra 15y ago

My parents didn't have kids until they could afford them. They were in their mid-30s when I was born. If I'd been raised in poverty because they had kids at 18 and dropped out of college, I would be entirely within my rights to question their judgement.

jonnathanson 15y ago
I don't think anyone's taking issue with the notion of personal responsibility, but rather, with your original phrasing -- in which you (perhaps in a tongue-in-cheek way?) implied that having children was a luxury akin to buying a sports car. One of those things is a hardwired, biological imperative of our species; the other is a fancy toy. Apples and oranges.
- khafra 15y ago
  Social signaling (such as flaunting luxury goods) is a hardwired, biological imperative of the entire Hominidae Family. Gorging on foods rich in historically hard-to-find nutrients like salt, fat, and sugar is a hardwired, biological imperative of the entire Mammal Class, at least--probably all animals. You blame people who fail to control their unhealthy eating decisions; why don't you blame people who fail to control their unhealthy procreating decisions?
  - jonnathanson 15y ago
    "You blame people who fail to control their unhealthy eating decisions; why don't you blame people who fail to control their unhealthy procreating decisions?" That's not what I said. I do blame people who make unhealthy parenting choices, i.e., who have kids before they're financially capable of supporting kids. I take no issue with that argument. Rather, I took issue with the language in your original post, which seemed to imply that having kids at all is considered a high-end luxury. IMO, something's seriously wrong with any society in which that's categorically true.
    - khafra 15y ago
      I was very careful to separate the financial difference and the cultural difference, and I feel like you're ignoring that. Having kids at all is not a basic human need on the level of food, water, and shelter. It is a biological urge, similar to the urge for french fries. Now, I don't personally think that eating a reasonable serving of french fries while getting adequate exercise is blameworthy; nor do I think that buying a Lambourghini while earning $10M/year is blameworthy; nor do I think that having children you can afford and care for is blameworthy. I do think that it's silly for popular culture to have sympathy and often admiration for unprepared parents, but scorn and derision for indebted luxury car owners. FWIW, I am childless and drive a VW.
      - tsunamifury 15y ago
        Your ignorance shows when you seem to think financial stability can be reached by most of the world. The reality is that most people will never achieve any sort of stability, living day to day, taking risks as they will. Effectively you are telling the majority of people on this planet they don't deserve the right to have children.
        khafra 15y ago
        What gives people the right to bring children into the world when they may not be able to support them properly? These are human lives we're talking about. I cannot think of any arrogance greater than assuming functioning genitals gives you the right to irretrievably screw up an innocent person. This kind of "I'm going to make babies and you can't stop me!" attitude is what created the Iron Law of Wages.
        khafra 15y ago
        Wow. Downvoted with no explanation. Not a single counter-argument ever given. I thought this would be one place I could question the attitude that popping out babies with no thought for the future is the god-given right of every person on earth. Looks like, even here, that's something you just can't say http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

by khafra 15y ago

jonnathanson 15y ago

I don't think anyone's taking issue with the notion of personal responsibility, but rather, with your original phrasing -- in which you (perhaps in a tongue-in-cheek way?) implied that having children was a luxury akin to buying a sports car. One of those things is a hardwired, biological imperative of our species; the other is a fancy toy. Apples and oranges.

khafra 15y ago
Social signaling (such as flaunting luxury goods) is a hardwired, biological imperative of the entire Hominidae Family. Gorging on foods rich in historically hard-to-find nutrients like salt, fat, and sugar is a hardwired, biological imperative of the entire Mammal Class, at least--probably all animals. You blame people who fail to control their unhealthy eating decisions; why don't you blame people who fail to control their unhealthy procreating decisions?
- jonnathanson 15y ago
  "You blame people who fail to control their unhealthy eating decisions; why don't you blame people who fail to control their unhealthy procreating decisions?" That's not what I said. I do blame people who make unhealthy parenting choices, i.e., who have kids before they're financially capable of supporting kids. I take no issue with that argument. Rather, I took issue with the language in your original post, which seemed to imply that having kids at all is considered a high-end luxury. IMO, something's seriously wrong with any society in which that's categorically true.
  - khafra 15y ago
    I was very careful to separate the financial difference and the cultural difference, and I feel like you're ignoring that. Having kids at all is not a basic human need on the level of food, water, and shelter. It is a biological urge, similar to the urge for french fries. Now, I don't personally think that eating a reasonable serving of french fries while getting adequate exercise is blameworthy; nor do I think that buying a Lambourghini while earning $10M/year is blameworthy; nor do I think that having children you can afford and care for is blameworthy. I do think that it's silly for popular culture to have sympathy and often admiration for unprepared parents, but scorn and derision for indebted luxury car owners. FWIW, I am childless and drive a VW.
    - tsunamifury 15y ago
      Your ignorance shows when you seem to think financial stability can be reached by most of the world. The reality is that most people will never achieve any sort of stability, living day to day, taking risks as they will. Effectively you are telling the majority of people on this planet they don't deserve the right to have children.
      - khafra 15y ago
        What gives people the right to bring children into the world when they may not be able to support them properly? These are human lives we're talking about. I cannot think of any arrogance greater than assuming functioning genitals gives you the right to irretrievably screw up an innocent person. This kind of "I'm going to make babies and you can't stop me!" attitude is what created the Iron Law of Wages.
        khafra 15y ago
        Wow. Downvoted with no explanation. Not a single counter-argument ever given. I thought this would be one place I could question the attitude that popping out babies with no thought for the future is the god-given right of every person on earth. Looks like, even here, that's something you just can't say http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html