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I blame JavaSchools for this. Computing education should be started in Scheme or Python, without all that accidental complexity-- "public static void main(Stri

I blame JavaSchools for this. Computing education should be started in Scheme or Python, without all that accidental complexity-- "public static void main(String[] args)"-- littered around the first program. To absorb all of that requires more than should be expected before people can write a first program. JavaSchools get people used to magic incantations that create a culture where inadequate knowledge is the norm. After learning the essentials, one can move on to languages with powerful type systems (Ocaml, Scala, Haskell) and the discussion of OOP and when it's appropriate and when not. People should be starting with simple programs and knowing exactly what they do, rather than creating classes without a clue what a class is and why the concept is important (much less where not to use object-oriented programming). The argument for starting CS in Java is that it makes grads more employable. Frankly, I would never hire (for a programming position) someone who took one CS course and stopped taking more. The whole raison d'etre for starting CS education in Java is bogus, and I think the practice is actually harmful. As much as I hate the factory metaphor in education, let's "produce" 20 programmers who actually understand what they are doing instead of 200 who don't have a clue.

thomaslangston 15y ago
My CS degree program was primarily taught in Java. This was not a problem. Language syntax had little to do with conceptual understanding. I appreciated graduating with a firm grasp of a popular language's syntax and core libraries in additional to an understanding of CS theory. Can you name a school that teaches a student only one CS course expecting them to be a programmer?
- lloeki 15y ago
  > My CS degree program was primarily taught in Java. Same here > This was not a problem. This was not either, for me. It was for ~80% of the class though. > Language syntax had little to do with conceptual understanding. A uselessly verbose, initially incantational syntax adds useless friction, which just makes many people minds grind. My experience in teaching languages is that Java and C# were atrocious grind generators whereas Python, Ruby and C were much smoother. JavaScript sits in the middle.
- michaelochurch 15y ago
  Can you name a school that teaches a student only one CS course expecting them to be a programmer? This is never explicit, but the reason many schools make Java the default language is because it's more "employable" than Python or Scheme. If you're a CS major, you've probably been exposed to Lisp or Python in your AI class, C in your OS course, and ML and Prolog in your PL class and the "default language" matters, from a CV perspective, a lot less because people've been exposed to more languages. The default language matters in this way for those who take one or two CS courses and then try out for programming jobs in the future.
prof_hobart 15y ago
I don't think it's just a Java thing. It's entirely possible to do this in pretty much any language. For one thing, I saw this kind of approach quite regularly from some programmers many years before Java even existed. Also,I'm currently teaching myself Haskell as a hobby, and I'm quite regularly going through the "jiggling things round until they work, and then discovering a far more elegant way of doing the same thing" process. I don't feel bad about this - my professional programming days are many years behind me now, and I find that knocking something up and then revisiting it when you've understood more is a great way to learn a language (just not a particularly good way to develop professional applications).

thomaslangston 15y ago

My CS degree program was primarily taught in Java. This was not a problem. Language syntax had little to do with conceptual understanding. I appreciated graduating with a firm grasp of a popular language's syntax and core libraries in additional to an understanding of CS theory. Can you name a school that teaches a student only one CS course expecting them to be a programmer?

lloeki 15y ago
> My CS degree program was primarily taught in Java. Same here > This was not a problem. This was not either, for me. It was for ~80% of the class though. > Language syntax had little to do with conceptual understanding. A uselessly verbose, initially incantational syntax adds useless friction, which just makes many people minds grind. My experience in teaching languages is that Java and C# were atrocious grind generators whereas Python, Ruby and C were much smoother. JavaScript sits in the middle.
michaelochurch 15y ago
Can you name a school that teaches a student only one CS course expecting them to be a programmer? This is never explicit, but the reason many schools make Java the default language is because it's more "employable" than Python or Scheme. If you're a CS major, you've probably been exposed to Lisp or Python in your AI class, C in your OS course, and ML and Prolog in your PL class and the "default language" matters, from a CV perspective, a lot less because people've been exposed to more languages. The default language matters in this way for those who take one or two CS courses and then try out for programming jobs in the future.

prof_hobart 15y ago

I don't think it's just a Java thing. It's entirely possible to do this in pretty much any language. For one thing, I saw this kind of approach quite regularly from some programmers many years before Java even existed. Also,I'm currently teaching myself Haskell as a hobby, and I'm quite regularly going through the "jiggling things round until they work, and then discovering a far more elegant way of doing the same thing" process. I don't feel bad about this - my professional programming days are many years behind me now, and I find that knocking something up and then revisiting it when you've understood more is a great way to learn a language (just not a particularly good way to develop professional applications).