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> Examples here are (again) the cryptocurrency scene which has been pretty good at othering critics as “no-coiners” or lately with the phrase “have fun staying

> Examples here are (again) the cryptocurrency scene which has been pretty good at othering critics as “no-coiners” or lately with the phrase “have fun staying poor”. I’m somebody that spends a good deal of time thinking deeply on cryptocurrencies and the implications to society. I believe they a positive, revolutionary step in the right direction of human liberty. And I’ll gladly acknowledge that it’s still speculative until it’s not. But crypto, like any other movement, attracts total scumbags. It’s unfortunate because people who speak negatively only serve to undermine their group - whether it’s crypto or a social cause group etc. and often they, themselves, are the insecure ignorant one that don’t even deeply understand what they’re fighting for.

zepto 5y ago
Crypto is different because the scumbags are motivated by the currencies themselves.
- elefanten 5y ago
  I suppose this was supposed to sound like a snappy argument? It’s a bland, impactless statement. Even if scumbags are infatuated with something, it can still have legitimate and beneficial uses / users. And the comment’s wrong too… the scumbags probably want to cash their gains out to traditional currencies, they’re least likely to be in it as technology true believers.
  - zepto 5y ago
    > Even if scumbags are infatuated with something, Nobody is taking about infatuation except you. Obviously the comment is talking about the incentive for people to try to drive the value of their holdings up. The scumbags are the ones who do this dishonestly. > And the comment’s wrong too… the scumbags probably want to cash their gains out to traditional currencies, they’re least likely to be in it as technology true believers. No. Anyone can be a scumbag. It has nothing to do with being in it for a quick buck or being a true believer or not. It’s simply about what methods one is willing to use. So yes, Hodlers, and crypto-utopians can be scumbags too.
  - ricardobeat 5y ago
    I think what he was trying to say is that saying "crypto attracts scumbags" puts the onus purely on consumers of the tech, when in fact a lot of the scummy behavior, hype and fraud is planned and encouraged by the people implementing the technology, not only their users. That's a significant departure from "any other movement".
    - zepto 5y ago
      > That's a significant departure from "any other movement". Exactly this. There are scumbags in every movement, but crypto has structural incentives for scumbaggery that make it distinct.
Comevius 5y ago
Crypto is not practical or fair by design. It needs a steady supply of greater fools to operate, and the only future it's capable of creating is one where everything is monetized, corporatized and the wealthy is in charge, with no recourse for the rest of us. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ_xWvX1n9g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ_xWvX1n9g
- anonporridge 5y ago
  All of civilization needs a never ending supply of greater fools to keep operating and reward the early investors. We call them children. If you don't want to participate in this ponzi, then chop wood and carry water until you can't anymore and let your body return to the earth.
- tarsinge 5y ago
  I really did not like that video. There are some interesting ideas but the tone is insufferable for me, not a fan of superficial punchlines and logical fallacies wrapped as deep thoughts, no matter if I agree or not with the point.
  - officialchicken 5y ago
    >superficial punchlines and logical fallacies I thought the writing and editing were excellent and well thought out. Can you give a specific example of when a logical fallacy was employed in the video?
    - tarsinge 5y ago
      Take the part 2: Personal comments on Vitalik, an history of scams during the period Ethereum was created but not directly related, a 100k grant Vitalik got which I fails to see the relevance too, a broad critic that can apply to any entrepreneur/programmer having a dunning kruger thinking they can easily disrupt an industry with software. Conclusion: > In terms of improvment over Bitcoin, Ethereum has many. It's not hard. Bitcoin sucks. Ethereum solves none of them and introduce a whole new suite of problems driven by technofetishistic egotism of assuming that programmers are uniquely suited to solve society's problem. It's nice prose but for me that part was really mostly appeal to emotions/ridicule and association/composition fallacies. To clarify the latter: scams and ridiculous marketing are a problem, but unfortunately that's not enough to make a logical point. Their proportion neither. Again there are good points, but it's weirdly positioned. For me it's a rant, but instead it's presented as a calm scientific/neutral content which I don't find very honest (and quite ironic given the subject). But I'm not a native english speaker, so maybe it's just me misinterpreting the tone.
sepiasaucer 5y ago
IMO the technology blockchain has only demonstrated success in 1 application which is cryptocurrency. Cryptocurrency has only demonstrated success in 2 applications: speculative investment and illegal online purchases. I would include NFT’s under the speculative investment category. These applications are obviously problematic for 3 main reasons: it wastes enormous amounts of energy, the investment is often at the expense of less tech/financial savvy people, and most people don’t want it to be easier for criminals to conduct financial transactions. IMO, it is not a few bad apples spoiling the bunch. It is a bunch of bad apples with a few good apples mixed in. Even if your motivations in working in this space are good (not simply for your own technical stimulation/amusement), you are trading off furthering/enabling real world harm now against optimistic speculation about future positive outcomes.
- maxilevi 5y ago
  I disagree. I use crypto to protect against high inflation in my country and mantain the value of the fruits of my labour. Where does that fit in your categories? Crypto and DeFi have a lot of applications, especially in third world countries with bad financial systems.
  - notahacker 5y ago
    > I use crypto to protect against high inflation in my country and mantain the value of the fruits of my labour. Where does that fit in your categories? This is obviously speculative investment. (Even if your local currency is so horrendous it lost more value than Bitcoin this month, less volatile ways of hedging exist. Maybe you bought lower or changed cryptoassets so you've gained far more than BTC fell, but that's speculative investment and trading, not maintaining value)
    - maxilevi 5y ago
      Its not. I am using stablecoins to hold currencies I wouldn't be able to hold because of capital controls.

zepto 5y ago

Crypto is different because the scumbags are motivated by the currencies themselves.

elefanten 5y ago
I suppose this was supposed to sound like a snappy argument? It’s a bland, impactless statement. Even if scumbags are infatuated with something, it can still have legitimate and beneficial uses / users. And the comment’s wrong too… the scumbags probably want to cash their gains out to traditional currencies, they’re least likely to be in it as technology true believers.
- zepto 5y ago
  > Even if scumbags are infatuated with something, Nobody is taking about infatuation except you. Obviously the comment is talking about the incentive for people to try to drive the value of their holdings up. The scumbags are the ones who do this dishonestly. > And the comment’s wrong too… the scumbags probably want to cash their gains out to traditional currencies, they’re least likely to be in it as technology true believers. No. Anyone can be a scumbag. It has nothing to do with being in it for a quick buck or being a true believer or not. It’s simply about what methods one is willing to use. So yes, Hodlers, and crypto-utopians can be scumbags too.
- ricardobeat 5y ago
  I think what he was trying to say is that saying "crypto attracts scumbags" puts the onus purely on consumers of the tech, when in fact a lot of the scummy behavior, hype and fraud is planned and encouraged by the people implementing the technology, not only their users. That's a significant departure from "any other movement".
  - zepto 5y ago
    > That's a significant departure from "any other movement". Exactly this. There are scumbags in every movement, but crypto has structural incentives for scumbaggery that make it distinct.

Comevius 5y ago

Crypto is not practical or fair by design. It needs a steady supply of greater fools to operate, and the only future it's capable of creating is one where everything is monetized, corporatized and the wealthy is in charge, with no recourse for the rest of us. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ_xWvX1n9g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ_xWvX1n9g

anonporridge 5y ago
All of civilization needs a never ending supply of greater fools to keep operating and reward the early investors. We call them children. If you don't want to participate in this ponzi, then chop wood and carry water until you can't anymore and let your body return to the earth.
tarsinge 5y ago
I really did not like that video. There are some interesting ideas but the tone is insufferable for me, not a fan of superficial punchlines and logical fallacies wrapped as deep thoughts, no matter if I agree or not with the point.
- officialchicken 5y ago
  >superficial punchlines and logical fallacies I thought the writing and editing were excellent and well thought out. Can you give a specific example of when a logical fallacy was employed in the video?
  - tarsinge 5y ago
    Take the part 2: Personal comments on Vitalik, an history of scams during the period Ethereum was created but not directly related, a 100k grant Vitalik got which I fails to see the relevance too, a broad critic that can apply to any entrepreneur/programmer having a dunning kruger thinking they can easily disrupt an industry with software. Conclusion: > In terms of improvment over Bitcoin, Ethereum has many. It's not hard. Bitcoin sucks. Ethereum solves none of them and introduce a whole new suite of problems driven by technofetishistic egotism of assuming that programmers are uniquely suited to solve society's problem. It's nice prose but for me that part was really mostly appeal to emotions/ridicule and association/composition fallacies. To clarify the latter: scams and ridiculous marketing are a problem, but unfortunately that's not enough to make a logical point. Their proportion neither. Again there are good points, but it's weirdly positioned. For me it's a rant, but instead it's presented as a calm scientific/neutral content which I don't find very honest (and quite ironic given the subject). But I'm not a native english speaker, so maybe it's just me misinterpreting the tone.

sepiasaucer 5y ago

IMO the technology blockchain has only demonstrated success in 1 application which is cryptocurrency. Cryptocurrency has only demonstrated success in 2 applications: speculative investment and illegal online purchases. I would include NFT’s under the speculative investment category. These applications are obviously problematic for 3 main reasons: it wastes enormous amounts of energy, the investment is often at the expense of less tech/financial savvy people, and most people don’t want it to be easier for criminals to conduct financial transactions. IMO, it is not a few bad apples spoiling the bunch. It is a bunch of bad apples with a few good apples mixed in. Even if your motivations in working in this space are good (not simply for your own technical stimulation/amusement), you are trading off furthering/enabling real world harm now against optimistic speculation about future positive outcomes.

maxilevi 5y ago
I disagree. I use crypto to protect against high inflation in my country and mantain the value of the fruits of my labour. Where does that fit in your categories? Crypto and DeFi have a lot of applications, especially in third world countries with bad financial systems.
- notahacker 5y ago
  > I use crypto to protect against high inflation in my country and mantain the value of the fruits of my labour. Where does that fit in your categories? This is obviously speculative investment. (Even if your local currency is so horrendous it lost more value than Bitcoin this month, less volatile ways of hedging exist. Maybe you bought lower or changed cryptoassets so you've gained far more than BTC fell, but that's speculative investment and trading, not maintaining value)
  - maxilevi 5y ago
    Its not. I am using stablecoins to hold currencies I wouldn't be able to hold because of capital controls.