5 ms·

I love my eBike but the biggest scam about them are the proprietary batteries. Imagine if there weren't AA, AA D, and C batteries but every electrical device yo

I love my eBike but the biggest scam about them are the proprietary batteries. Imagine if there weren't AA, AA D, and C batteries but every electrical device you purchased had it's own battery shape and size at marked up prices that you had to purchase from that manufacturer. I would love to buy a second battery to extend my range but I refuse to pay $700 for a battery that only fits on my bike. The company that standardizes batteries will do well I think, because I can't be the alone one who wants this.

glogla 5y ago
Sadly, the manufacturers (Bosch, mostly) managed to convince various governments that the proprietary batteries with DRM are there to prevent tampering and this safety. So I'm not sure if it's going away.
- FpUser 5y ago
  Depends what eBike you are buying. There are currently many with the batteries you could get from Amazon / Ali.
- mwattsun 5y ago
  You're not joking. The third link on Google for "bosch battery drm" is Hacker News talking about this. I'm surprised I missed this. "These bikes are DRM'd to the hilt and any attempt at hacking them will cause the bike to brick itself which you can only reset at the dealership. You can do that three times and then it's permanent." user jacquesm 71 days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29201673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29201673
- throw64748 5y ago
  I mean Bosch left the battery business years ago. What the manufacturers care about is to limit risk under the constraint of government regulations. That said the E-Bike business is too small to come up with a bold move there but in electric driving there seems a lot of experimentation going.
yardie 5y ago
The battery cases are all custom but the batteries are the same 18650 you can buy on Amazon. My ebike has a custom case that fits in the lower frame. The actual case is held together with philips screws. And I could potentially increase range by swapping out higher capacity cells.
- mwattsun 5y ago
  Are you sure about that? Because the battery management systems are proprietary. I'm just starting to research this, so don't take my word, but I'm pretty sure they take steps to lock you in.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    What exactly does a battery management system do and how is it incorporated into the battery pack itself?
    - mwattsun 5y ago
      You should ask user battery management system hacker jacquesm about that because I'm just starting to learn https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29201673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29201673
    - saiya-jin 5y ago
      It can be smart and ensure longer battery life by not overcharging weaker parts of the pack. You never have perfectly even drain even if you use just 2-3 batteries. It can be just a gimmick to ensure you use proper TM cells instead of generic ones, in same vein phone chargers are split into manufacturer's and the rest, regardless of quality/power. Vendor lock-in has been done successfully in the past and brands like Apple don't get hurt by it. So why should e-bikes be different.
      - netizen-936824 5y ago
        Because those are shitty business practices that only serve the profits of the corporation. My hope is that people arrive to be better, rather than pull the same old bullshit to protect profits
FpUser 5y ago
Batteries were the first thing I was looking for when buying eBike. Ended up buying eBike with 48v 21AH battery from a local store in Toronto that also has service department. Before buying made sure that I could buy replacement battery and yes - newer version with 25AH capacity is available from Ali and it is half the price comparatively to the local store.
- smiley1437 5y ago
  Care to share who you ended up buying from? Also live in GTA
  - FpUser 5y ago
    Emmo
Foivos 5y ago
I first hard to deal with this when a bought a DSLR camera. It is a Nikon and works only Nikon batteries.
- Nition 5y ago
  The Samsung DigiMax V4 camera did it right in 2003. Comes with a high capacity custom rechargeable battery, but no need to find another one if it ever starts to wear out - you can use two rechargeable AA batteries instead in the same battery compartment.
patrickk 5y ago
Prior discussion on ridiculous ebike battery prices: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29562842 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29562842
seniorsassycat 5y ago
My Bosch 500 pack died and I had to buy a new one for 900$. Pulled the old battery pack apart and measured good voltage on all the cells, I think the proprietary battery charge controller is busted.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  Apparently there is a diode on the controller that fails. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia4xe_R0qgw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia4xe_R0qgw
- mwattsun 5y ago
  If only the shops that fix iPhones could get into the ebike fixing business
frankus 5y ago
There's a similar phenomenon in cordless power tools. Each one comes with its own proprietary connection and hence tools and charging system. There does seem to be a variation on the "give away the razors to sell the blades" business model here too. Batteries/chargers are much cheaper (like 30% of the cost) when bundled with tools than they are when bought individually. I suspect the bundles are to recruit new customers, after which they buy a few "bare tool" options because they're marginally cheaper, and then they find themselves needing to buy a battery at $90 instead of having paid an extra $30 for a bundle that includes the tool, a carrying case, a battery and a charger. I know that there are some exceptions for dangerous goods shipping of lithium batteries if they're part of a device versus a standalone battery, but that can't be it, can it?
- to11mtm 5y ago
  > I suspect the bundles are to recruit new customers, after which they buy a few "bare tool" options because they're marginally cheaper, and then they find themselves needing to buy a battery at $90 instead of having paid an extra $30 for a bundle that includes the tool, a carrying case, a battery and a charger. What I wound up doing (and what I see most folks do) was more or less following a rule; your first few tools you usually buy bundles anyway. It's not till you get to your 4th or 5th tool that you ask whether to get the battery or not. (e.x. If you need a snowblower, you can probably use the lawnmower batteries. P.S. don't let your batteries get cold, the snowblower hates that.) No, the expensive batteries are because of the long game. In the long game, you're still screwed. Eventually, those batteries -will- start to suck. Especially if your garage is not climate controlled and gets really hot, and frankly even after regular usage I'm surprised at how warm they are. The ability to output usable voltage for your tools becomes a Joke, you can charge them but the lawnmower stalls on a single wet leaf.

glogla 5y ago

Sadly, the manufacturers (Bosch, mostly) managed to convince various governments that the proprietary batteries with DRM are there to prevent tampering and this safety. So I'm not sure if it's going away.

FpUser 5y ago
Depends what eBike you are buying. There are currently many with the batteries you could get from Amazon / Ali.
mwattsun 5y ago
You're not joking. The third link on Google for "bosch battery drm" is Hacker News talking about this. I'm surprised I missed this. "These bikes are DRM'd to the hilt and any attempt at hacking them will cause the bike to brick itself which you can only reset at the dealership. You can do that three times and then it's permanent." user jacquesm 71 days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29201673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29201673
throw64748 5y ago
I mean Bosch left the battery business years ago. What the manufacturers care about is to limit risk under the constraint of government regulations. That said the E-Bike business is too small to come up with a bold move there but in electric driving there seems a lot of experimentation going.

yardie 5y ago

The battery cases are all custom but the batteries are the same 18650 you can buy on Amazon. My ebike has a custom case that fits in the lower frame. The actual case is held together with philips screws. And I could potentially increase range by swapping out higher capacity cells.

mwattsun 5y ago
Are you sure about that? Because the battery management systems are proprietary. I'm just starting to research this, so don't take my word, but I'm pretty sure they take steps to lock you in.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  What exactly does a battery management system do and how is it incorporated into the battery pack itself?
  - mwattsun 5y ago
    You should ask user battery management system hacker jacquesm about that because I'm just starting to learn https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29201673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29201673
  - saiya-jin 5y ago
    It can be smart and ensure longer battery life by not overcharging weaker parts of the pack. You never have perfectly even drain even if you use just 2-3 batteries. It can be just a gimmick to ensure you use proper TM cells instead of generic ones, in same vein phone chargers are split into manufacturer's and the rest, regardless of quality/power. Vendor lock-in has been done successfully in the past and brands like Apple don't get hurt by it. So why should e-bikes be different.
    - netizen-936824 5y ago
      Because those are shitty business practices that only serve the profits of the corporation. My hope is that people arrive to be better, rather than pull the same old bullshit to protect profits

FpUser 5y ago

Batteries were the first thing I was looking for when buying eBike. Ended up buying eBike with 48v 21AH battery from a local store in Toronto that also has service department. Before buying made sure that I could buy replacement battery and yes - newer version with 25AH capacity is available from Ali and it is half the price comparatively to the local store.

smiley1437 5y ago
Care to share who you ended up buying from? Also live in GTA
- FpUser 5y ago
  Emmo

Foivos 5y ago

I first hard to deal with this when a bought a DSLR camera. It is a Nikon and works only Nikon batteries.

Nition 5y ago
The Samsung DigiMax V4 camera did it right in 2003. Comes with a high capacity custom rechargeable battery, but no need to find another one if it ever starts to wear out - you can use two rechargeable AA batteries instead in the same battery compartment.

patrickk 5y ago

Prior discussion on ridiculous ebike battery prices: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29562842 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29562842

seniorsassycat 5y ago

My Bosch 500 pack died and I had to buy a new one for 900$. Pulled the old battery pack apart and measured good voltage on all the cells, I think the proprietary battery charge controller is busted.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
Apparently there is a diode on the controller that fails. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia4xe_R0qgw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia4xe_R0qgw
mwattsun 5y ago
If only the shops that fix iPhones could get into the ebike fixing business

frankus 5y ago

There's a similar phenomenon in cordless power tools. Each one comes with its own proprietary connection and hence tools and charging system. There does seem to be a variation on the "give away the razors to sell the blades" business model here too. Batteries/chargers are much cheaper (like 30% of the cost) when bundled with tools than they are when bought individually. I suspect the bundles are to recruit new customers, after which they buy a few "bare tool" options because they're marginally cheaper, and then they find themselves needing to buy a battery at $90 instead of having paid an extra $30 for a bundle that includes the tool, a carrying case, a battery and a charger. I know that there are some exceptions for dangerous goods shipping of lithium batteries if they're part of a device versus a standalone battery, but that can't be it, can it?

to11mtm 5y ago
> I suspect the bundles are to recruit new customers, after which they buy a few "bare tool" options because they're marginally cheaper, and then they find themselves needing to buy a battery at $90 instead of having paid an extra $30 for a bundle that includes the tool, a carrying case, a battery and a charger. What I wound up doing (and what I see most folks do) was more or less following a rule; your first few tools you usually buy bundles anyway. It's not till you get to your 4th or 5th tool that you ask whether to get the battery or not. (e.x. If you need a snowblower, you can probably use the lawnmower batteries. P.S. don't let your batteries get cold, the snowblower hates that.) No, the expensive batteries are because of the long game. In the long game, you're still screwed. Eventually, those batteries -will- start to suck. Especially if your garage is not climate controlled and gets really hot, and frankly even after regular usage I'm surprised at how warm they are. The ability to output usable voltage for your tools becomes a Joke, you can charge them but the lawnmower stalls on a single wet leaf.