7 ms·

As an ex-programmer, now bicycle mechanic working mostly on e-bikes I'd like to add a few things: People love ebikes not because of barely having to pedal, but

by TomK32 5y ago

As an ex-programmer, now bicycle mechanic working mostly on e-bikes I'd like to add a few things: People love ebikes not because of barely having to pedal, but because they can reach places with the bicycles that are out of their reach with a regular bike. It can be long weekend rides for some, but it can also be living/working on a hill. It's like owning a horse in olden times when all you had before were your own two legs. No idea what the author means with "lacking a Toyota Corolla equivalent". (E-)Bikes come in wide range of price and range, often from the same manufacturer. It's the components that dictate the final price, barely the frame, motor or battery where less choice exists than with the other components. Drive by wire will be exotic for a long time, I can see it taking over certain niches like recumbent bike where you have an extremely long drive train. Everybody else will run on cheap mechanical drive trains for a long time to come. Never ever will we see electronic or even wireless braking, it's just madness and illegal everywhere. We will though see ABS from Bosch soon, not sure if that's such a good idea or even necessary at the low speeds of a <20mph ebike. >> Most bikes are sold as toys or as overcomplicated hobbyist contraptions. This is probably the US-centric view, but with a certain threshold of cyclists the wide middle of bike sales is practical bikes for short rides in the city with a hub dynamo a basket or rack for you shopping. Certainly not toys or sporty bikes. The author shortly mentions removing batteries as optional, I must insist that removing and replacing a battery is a must-have to ensure the bike to be usable for a long time as many decent bikes do get ridden for 10, 20 or even 30 years.

analog31 5y ago
I don't think it's fully appreciated that automotive brakes are highly engineered and evolve very slowly. And a car can absorb the weight penalty of a failsafe braking system. Also, two wheel electric braking would require two electric actuators.
bambax 5y ago
> People love ebikes not because of barely having to pedal, but because they can reach places with the bicycles that are out of their reach with a regular bike. It can be long weekend rides for some, but it can also be living/working on a hill. Yes! That's what drove me towards the ebike. I live on top of a 10% slope and using a regular bike was simply impossible (for me). Having an ebike changed my life completely. I now never use my motorbike anymore (at all) and the car, extremely rarely.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  Even without steep hills, I bike daily but I can sense when I'm reaching exhaustion and distance limits. Having a bit of backup energy to stay in the "fun" zone wouldn't be bad, so any time you are low, or you need to ensure 20mph to get quickly to a spot .. it won't cause you harm.
detaro 5y ago
In plenty places (i.e. the EU), assist-bikes are also a different legal category from ones that are purely electric, with no drive-train from the pedals.
wolfram74 5y ago
From my time having a hybrid, removable battery is important just day to day maintenance as well, often times bike storage and convenient charging are not in the same place. Say, the bike parking in an apartment complex and your flat on the 3rd story.
- jack_riminton 5y ago
  Security too. In the UK a big target for thieves is just the battery.
FpUser 5y ago
>"People love ebikes not because of barely having to pedal, but because they can reach places with the bicycles that are out of their reach with a regular bike. " I did rides up to 180km long on regular bike without much problem. The reason I got eBike now is that while I have enough physical strength over the years my knees stopped liking sudden accelerations and steep heels. Ebike takes care of that part just fine. With ebike I still have proper fitness level, come back from my rides with the battery almost full and my knees intact ;) Sure I could do with wide gear range but it is just not the same. Much more fun on ebike.
- loonster 5y ago
  Thinking on this, ebikes probably make the roads safer. Bicyclist would be more likely to come to a full stop. In traffic, they would be able to accelerate back up to proper speed after red lights.
  - TomK32 5y ago
    It is that speed from a full stop that is actually more dangerous because motorists don't expect it and will attempt to cross before you thinking there is enough time to do so due to cyclists being slow.
mchusma 5y ago
I'm curious what is the cheapest decent ebike you can get is. I think you hint that $500 is possible, which would be awesome, curious if you have recommendations. I bought my current bike from Walmart for about $150, and would be interested in updating to an ebike if they were in the $500 range.
- bserge 5y ago
  Under $500, you can update your current bike to an e-bike. In fact, that's the best way to do it. Get a good bike and modify it into an electric. You get much better customization and quality for the price. But that's not for everyone. Perhaps someone with access to funding can start a chain of conversion shops... but honestly, Swapfiets is cheaper.
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    I did that but the result was underwhelming compared to the Bosch based bike I ended up with.
- hotpotamus 5y ago
  https://slickdeals.net/f/15559585-swft-volt-ebike-w-32mi-max-operating-range-19-8-mph-max-speed-black-swft-volt-blk-499-99?v=1&src=SiteSearch https://slickdeals.net/f/15559585-swft-volt-ebike-w-32mi-max... Actually just bought this one. It's obviously made to a price, but quite rideable and has gotten me out riding again and a little more excited to exercise.
  - ckdarby 5y ago
    Looks like this is $1k USD and not $500
    - hotpotamus 5y ago
      Well, I paid $500. For what it is I would not pay $1000. Certainly it shows that a $500 eBike is possible.
bagacrap 5y ago
I don't see why wireless braking is impossible. Presumably a system could be contrived that is just as reliable as mechanical (/hydraulic) brakes, i.e. 99.99?%. It could, for example, detect failure (loss of connectivity with lever), warn, and slowly start braking automatically. OTOH if all your hydro fluid leaks out (not likely but not impossible) or your cable snaps there's no official warning system in place or way to recover if you do notice. Realistically the most common form of total brake failure, I reckon, is when the pads overheat or simply wear out. The most common braking mistake would be over-application of the front brake. The most common cause of diminished performance is a poorly adjusted setup. I feel like smart electronic brakes could help improve all of these problems, although I guess it's possible to have smart electronic brakes that use a long cable as a "button" so what it really comes down to is whether you can make a wifi system more reliable than a metal cable or mineral oil hose.
- cjlars 5y ago
  Plenty of electric scooters have no mechanical brakes and only electric braking on one hub. But since an extra couple feet of stopping power can be a life or death feature, you definitely want breaking on both tires. Even assuming no reliability issues with the electric breaks (hello sudden rain storm), mechanical is a cheap and weight efficient way of adding braking to the second hub.
- somerandomqaguy 5y ago
  I don't think it's impossible, but to me it's a solution that introduces more problems then it solves. First off, you'd need to either have a a battery to the brake lever. If you're going to power it off the main battery, you're going to have to run a wire to then, and if you're routing 2, then you may as well route another 2 for signalling. Otherwise you're throwing out the main advantage of wireless. But that means now you've got an additional battery to monitor. Second is that the comms systems need to have pretty heavy duty filtering and need to do it fast. 100 milliseconds delay in signalling means at 30kph you're going to add almost a meter of stopping distance. That's a lot of processing power and a lot of power consumption to ensure the near microsecond performance that you're going to get with hydraulic systems. Third is the issue of tying your brakes to an electrical system. When your main battery dies, that more or less means that you have no brakes whatsoever. Fourth is that now your components now also have to go through FCC certification, as does any piece of equipment that communicates on radio frequencies. Further increasing cost. And you throw out all the advantages of hydraulic brakes; no power to use, redundancy between front and rear in the event one fails, ease of maintenance for hydraulic brakes, being able to feel the behavior of the brakes under your fingers, etc, easy to notice if there is a problem (leaks primarily will show up as decreasing fluid in the reservoir). Honestly IMO it doesn't really seem worth the tradeoffs.
lenova 5y ago
> As an ex-programmer, now bicycle mechanic I'd love to here more about this transition!
- ckdarby 5y ago
  I as well
  - eliaspro 5y ago
    Me too, as my local bikeshop tried to hire me several times but the difference in pay made it impossible for me although the career change in general would be quite welcome.
    - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
      I’ve managed a career transition to lower pay. A big reason I am able to do it is I don’t own a home, I don’t have kids, and I’m not married. I’m doing what I want though! Which for me is open source robotics.
- TomK32 5y ago
  The pay is terrible, but the path to my own workshop is much easier than running a programming company, who knows. To be brutally honest, programming was a love for 20 years but I've burnt out and looking back, maybe the pay was unreasonable high in the first place and like for many: at the end of the month the money was all gone.
fouc 5y ago
"The Toyota Corolla is by far the best-selling model of car ever made, with close to 50 million units sold since its launch in 1966." "a Toyota Corolla equivalent" implies to me a budget-friendly bike with impeccable build-quality, that appeals to both the mainstream & the hacker/modder/racer types. Perhaps the author is asking at least one top e-bike manufacturer to standardize on just a couple models, and focus on making them the best bang for buck.
- phaedrus 5y ago
  Might not be possible in the current supply chain of "built to fail" bicycles. You may wish for a Toyota Corolla, but what we get is more like a Yugo. https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxdgq9/mechanics-ask-walmart-major-bike-manufacturers-to-stop-making-and-selling-built-to-fail-bikes https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxdgq9/mechanics-ask-walmart...
  - to11mtm 5y ago
    It's absolutely possible, consumers just have to be willing to pay more. The situation with 'cheap' bikes is the same as it was almost 20 years ago when I worked at a shop; If you spend less than X$ on a bike, it's almost certain to require repairs down the road and there's a good chance (i.e. if it's a 'full suspension' cheapie) you won't even be able to find the parts to do it. If you spend more than X$ (while still using common sense and realizing cheapies exist at higher dollar amounts,) you're probably going to get something between a Corolla and an Elantra. (Elantras -have- gotten better over the years and do last -longer, but do often need more TLC and perhaps wear a bit harder.) Many bike shops, at least the ones in seasonal parts of the US barely make money on their cheapest bikes (When you factor in free tune ups, etc,) and will at best make money on accessories. The shop I worked at, sometimes we'd take someones broken wal-mart bike on a trade-in for one of our base models. Nine times out of ten though we would just part out what was good after a month or so (cool-off in case the bike was hot, but I never recalled seeing a hot wal-mart bike, let alone a broken one.)
  - drewzero1 5y ago
    I've dabbled in vintage/nicer bikes and used to think it was snobism when people on the forums described bikes from walmart etc. as BSOs. Then I owned a few bike-shaped objects and tried to fix/update them and realized they were just a few steps removed from junk to begin with. It's sad that you have to get up into the few hundred dollar range to get a usable bike, because around here that's actual (very used) corolla money. I don't want to have to be an enthusiast (and spend enthusiast money) to get a bike I can reliably commute on.
to11mtm 5y ago
> No idea what the author means with "lacking a Toyota Corolla equivalent". (E-)Bikes come in wide range of price and range, often from the same manufacturer. It's the components that dictate the final price, barely the frame, motor or battery where less choice exists than with the other components. If I had to guess, It's that a lot of the US e-bikes seem to fall either into the category of being marketed to various existing known US rider segments. But those segments are people that care about the gear on the bike, they might care bout tweaking and playing with it, etc etc. Lets pretend those companies (like Specialized) are playing Buick and Lincoln in the E-Bike segment. We also have all these really cheap e-bikes on Amazon. These are (at least, perception wise) typically playing in the 1990s PentaStar and 1990s Kia segment. In other words, they're cheaper, but there's this expectation that you'll have to fix things more often and there's definitely some annoying cheap-outs in places. A Corolla e-bike, would basically be a boring piece of wonderbread. It would probably be best packaged as a 700c Wide tire hybrid or 26" with 1.5" city/gravel-worthy tires. It would have simple, reliable components. If it had shimano parts, I'd hope that most of them would have part numbers starting with a 3 (IIRC that would put it around Altus-ish level?) Double Wall rims (I don't think you'd even want to try otherwise on an american e-bike) and just say 'f it', go 36 spoke and 4 cross if you can manage. In other words, Boring and reliable, marketed that way. Maybe it -does- exist but I haven't seen it yet in my searches (that's more or less what I'd want, frankly) > We will though see ABS from Bosch soon, not sure if that's such a good idea or even necessary at the low speeds of a <20mph ebike. If I had to guess, this is because lots of casual folks want disc brakes on a bike, but don't know how to use them properly, because unfortunately a lot of folks in this country remember trying to stop on their parent's Schwinns with worn out rubber, nearly frictionless chrome wheels, and turkey wing bar-levers; AKA their first reflex is to clench the brakes and they're very likely to endo. Doesn't help that in the US we have a strange litigious relationship with Cycling, there have been some pretty interesting lawsuits over the decades due to safety complaints. Johnson v. Derby would be a specific one that comes to mind. The lawsuit that nearly bankrupted the shop I once worked at (effectively did cripple it to a slow death/change in ownership) is another. > This is probably the US-centric view, but with a certain threshold of cyclists the wide middle of bike sales is practical bikes for short rides in the city with a hub dynamo a basket or rack for you shopping. Certainly not toys or sporty bikes. Yeah, US Centric, somewhat because the majority our cities are designed around cars. This is why we talk a lot about things like 'food poverty,' because there are cities where the lack of a car makes it nearly impossible for folks to get food (Short of walking to the local 'convenience store' that charges markups and has limited selection.) Ironically, E-Bikes could help in some of these situations, but it still requires a bit of a paradigm shift. Which is a shame. I got into riding in college, and I did at least as much riding for 'work/shopping/etc' as I did for pleasure. Heck of the thousands of miles my mountain bike has logged, probably 50 of it has been 'trails'. But I'm in a minority.
rdtwo 5y ago
I don’t get it what an ebike really brings that wasn’t already available in a moped or scooter? At least for me the #1 reason I don’t bike much is that there is no way to get places safely. Sharing the road with cars is quite risky while not quite motor cycle risky still very high risk that’s simply not worth it.
- TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  As someone who did loads of mountain biking in high school, I like bicycles more than mopeds or scooters. It is hard for me to explain why, but I’d feel more comfortable going off road on a bicycle, it feels cooler, and it’s just what I’m used to.
- cbdumas 5y ago
  Can't speak for everywhere but in Washington state almost anything sold as a scooter or moped in fact requires a full motorcycle endorsement, liability insurance, annual registration, etc. The cutoff for a motorcycle endorsement is a max 49cc motor or 2 brake horsepower, which excludes nearly everything sold as a scooter that I can find. You are certainly right that in most of the US biking infrastructure is embarrassingly bad, hopefully if pedal-assist ebikes get more popular that will spur more investment in bike paths and separated infrastructure.
  - rdtwo 5y ago
    I see the appeal in using them to skirt regulations and travel in the bike only trails or to go into dnr lands or non motorized trails but they are also like 50-60lb bikes. Super heavy and not a lot of fun to just pedal without assistance.
- closeparen 5y ago
  The right to use bike lanes and to park on sidewalks / inside buildings.
SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
> No idea what the author means with "lacking a Toyota Corolla equivalent". An older metaphor for the same might be "The Model T Ford" of $product. As in, the influential model that brought the product to the masses, because it was more affordable, had good reliability and sold in huge volume: "The Ford Model T Is generally regarded as the first affordable automobile, which made car travel available to middle-class Americans. The relatively low price ... The Ford Model T was named the most influential car of the 20th century" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T
tonyedgecombe 5y ago
>We will though see ABS from Bosch soon, not sure if that's such a good idea or even necessary at the low speeds of a <20mph ebike It might have saved me a broken arm. I had not long had my European spec e-bike and forgot the brakes were reversed when I arrived at a damp corner. I touched what I thought was the rear brake and went straight down.
- WelcomeShorty 5y ago
  > the brakes were reversed Compared to a motorcycle, I assume?
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    Compared to a UK bicycle.
- TomK32 5y ago
  British? Autsch. Why not swap the brake cables? Not a big problem even for hydraulic brakes. It's a 20~30 minutes job for a mechanic.
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    >Why not swap the brake cables? They come out of the left side of the frame and one of them isn't quite long enough. I've got used to it now.
foxyv 5y ago
> lacking a Toyota Corolla equivalent I think this is referring to reliability and cost together. Although I would point the author at the Priority Current. That thing will probably ride until the wheels fall off. Belt drive and internally geared with a bottom bracket motor. https://www.prioritybicycles.com/products/current https://www.prioritybicycles.com/products/current

by TomK32 5y ago

analog31 5y ago

I don't think it's fully appreciated that automotive brakes are highly engineered and evolve very slowly. And a car can absorb the weight penalty of a failsafe braking system. Also, two wheel electric braking would require two electric actuators.

bambax 5y ago

> People love ebikes not because of barely having to pedal, but because they can reach places with the bicycles that are out of their reach with a regular bike. It can be long weekend rides for some, but it can also be living/working on a hill. Yes! That's what drove me towards the ebike. I live on top of a 10% slope and using a regular bike was simply impossible (for me). Having an ebike changed my life completely. I now never use my motorbike anymore (at all) and the car, extremely rarely.

agumonkey 5y ago
Even without steep hills, I bike daily but I can sense when I'm reaching exhaustion and distance limits. Having a bit of backup energy to stay in the "fun" zone wouldn't be bad, so any time you are low, or you need to ensure 20mph to get quickly to a spot .. it won't cause you harm.

detaro 5y ago

In plenty places (i.e. the EU), assist-bikes are also a different legal category from ones that are purely electric, with no drive-train from the pedals.

wolfram74 5y ago

From my time having a hybrid, removable battery is important just day to day maintenance as well, often times bike storage and convenient charging are not in the same place. Say, the bike parking in an apartment complex and your flat on the 3rd story.

jack_riminton 5y ago
Security too. In the UK a big target for thieves is just the battery.

FpUser 5y ago

>"People love ebikes not because of barely having to pedal, but because they can reach places with the bicycles that are out of their reach with a regular bike. " I did rides up to 180km long on regular bike without much problem. The reason I got eBike now is that while I have enough physical strength over the years my knees stopped liking sudden accelerations and steep heels. Ebike takes care of that part just fine. With ebike I still have proper fitness level, come back from my rides with the battery almost full and my knees intact ;) Sure I could do with wide gear range but it is just not the same. Much more fun on ebike.

loonster 5y ago
Thinking on this, ebikes probably make the roads safer. Bicyclist would be more likely to come to a full stop. In traffic, they would be able to accelerate back up to proper speed after red lights.
- TomK32 5y ago
  It is that speed from a full stop that is actually more dangerous because motorists don't expect it and will attempt to cross before you thinking there is enough time to do so due to cyclists being slow.

mchusma 5y ago

I'm curious what is the cheapest decent ebike you can get is. I think you hint that $500 is possible, which would be awesome, curious if you have recommendations. I bought my current bike from Walmart for about $150, and would be interested in updating to an ebike if they were in the $500 range.

bserge 5y ago
Under $500, you can update your current bike to an e-bike. In fact, that's the best way to do it. Get a good bike and modify it into an electric. You get much better customization and quality for the price. But that's not for everyone. Perhaps someone with access to funding can start a chain of conversion shops... but honestly, Swapfiets is cheaper.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  I did that but the result was underwhelming compared to the Bosch based bike I ended up with.
hotpotamus 5y ago
https://slickdeals.net/f/15559585-swft-volt-ebike-w-32mi-max-operating-range-19-8-mph-max-speed-black-swft-volt-blk-499-99?v=1&src=SiteSearch https://slickdeals.net/f/15559585-swft-volt-ebike-w-32mi-max... Actually just bought this one. It's obviously made to a price, but quite rideable and has gotten me out riding again and a little more excited to exercise.
- ckdarby 5y ago
  Looks like this is $1k USD and not $500
  - hotpotamus 5y ago
    Well, I paid $500. For what it is I would not pay $1000. Certainly it shows that a $500 eBike is possible.

bagacrap 5y ago

I don't see why wireless braking is impossible. Presumably a system could be contrived that is just as reliable as mechanical (/hydraulic) brakes, i.e. 99.99?%. It could, for example, detect failure (loss of connectivity with lever), warn, and slowly start braking automatically. OTOH if all your hydro fluid leaks out (not likely but not impossible) or your cable snaps there's no official warning system in place or way to recover if you do notice. Realistically the most common form of total brake failure, I reckon, is when the pads overheat or simply wear out. The most common braking mistake would be over-application of the front brake. The most common cause of diminished performance is a poorly adjusted setup. I feel like smart electronic brakes could help improve all of these problems, although I guess it's possible to have smart electronic brakes that use a long cable as a "button" so what it really comes down to is whether you can make a wifi system more reliable than a metal cable or mineral oil hose.

cjlars 5y ago
Plenty of electric scooters have no mechanical brakes and only electric braking on one hub. But since an extra couple feet of stopping power can be a life or death feature, you definitely want breaking on both tires. Even assuming no reliability issues with the electric breaks (hello sudden rain storm), mechanical is a cheap and weight efficient way of adding braking to the second hub.
somerandomqaguy 5y ago
I don't think it's impossible, but to me it's a solution that introduces more problems then it solves. First off, you'd need to either have a a battery to the brake lever. If you're going to power it off the main battery, you're going to have to run a wire to then, and if you're routing 2, then you may as well route another 2 for signalling. Otherwise you're throwing out the main advantage of wireless. But that means now you've got an additional battery to monitor. Second is that the comms systems need to have pretty heavy duty filtering and need to do it fast. 100 milliseconds delay in signalling means at 30kph you're going to add almost a meter of stopping distance. That's a lot of processing power and a lot of power consumption to ensure the near microsecond performance that you're going to get with hydraulic systems. Third is the issue of tying your brakes to an electrical system. When your main battery dies, that more or less means that you have no brakes whatsoever. Fourth is that now your components now also have to go through FCC certification, as does any piece of equipment that communicates on radio frequencies. Further increasing cost. And you throw out all the advantages of hydraulic brakes; no power to use, redundancy between front and rear in the event one fails, ease of maintenance for hydraulic brakes, being able to feel the behavior of the brakes under your fingers, etc, easy to notice if there is a problem (leaks primarily will show up as decreasing fluid in the reservoir). Honestly IMO it doesn't really seem worth the tradeoffs.

lenova 5y ago

> As an ex-programmer, now bicycle mechanic I'd love to here more about this transition!

ckdarby 5y ago
I as well
- eliaspro 5y ago
  Me too, as my local bikeshop tried to hire me several times but the difference in pay made it impossible for me although the career change in general would be quite welcome.
  - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
    I’ve managed a career transition to lower pay. A big reason I am able to do it is I don’t own a home, I don’t have kids, and I’m not married. I’m doing what I want though! Which for me is open source robotics.
TomK32 5y ago
The pay is terrible, but the path to my own workshop is much easier than running a programming company, who knows. To be brutally honest, programming was a love for 20 years but I've burnt out and looking back, maybe the pay was unreasonable high in the first place and like for many: at the end of the month the money was all gone.

fouc 5y ago

"The Toyota Corolla is by far the best-selling model of car ever made, with close to 50 million units sold since its launch in 1966." "a Toyota Corolla equivalent" implies to me a budget-friendly bike with impeccable build-quality, that appeals to both the mainstream & the hacker/modder/racer types. Perhaps the author is asking at least one top e-bike manufacturer to standardize on just a couple models, and focus on making them the best bang for buck.

phaedrus 5y ago
Might not be possible in the current supply chain of "built to fail" bicycles. You may wish for a Toyota Corolla, but what we get is more like a Yugo. https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxdgq9/mechanics-ask-walmart-major-bike-manufacturers-to-stop-making-and-selling-built-to-fail-bikes https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxdgq9/mechanics-ask-walmart...
- to11mtm 5y ago
  It's absolutely possible, consumers just have to be willing to pay more. The situation with 'cheap' bikes is the same as it was almost 20 years ago when I worked at a shop; If you spend less than X$ on a bike, it's almost certain to require repairs down the road and there's a good chance (i.e. if it's a 'full suspension' cheapie) you won't even be able to find the parts to do it. If you spend more than X$ (while still using common sense and realizing cheapies exist at higher dollar amounts,) you're probably going to get something between a Corolla and an Elantra. (Elantras -have- gotten better over the years and do last -longer, but do often need more TLC and perhaps wear a bit harder.) Many bike shops, at least the ones in seasonal parts of the US barely make money on their cheapest bikes (When you factor in free tune ups, etc,) and will at best make money on accessories. The shop I worked at, sometimes we'd take someones broken wal-mart bike on a trade-in for one of our base models. Nine times out of ten though we would just part out what was good after a month or so (cool-off in case the bike was hot, but I never recalled seeing a hot wal-mart bike, let alone a broken one.)
- drewzero1 5y ago
  I've dabbled in vintage/nicer bikes and used to think it was snobism when people on the forums described bikes from walmart etc. as BSOs. Then I owned a few bike-shaped objects and tried to fix/update them and realized they were just a few steps removed from junk to begin with. It's sad that you have to get up into the few hundred dollar range to get a usable bike, because around here that's actual (very used) corolla money. I don't want to have to be an enthusiast (and spend enthusiast money) to get a bike I can reliably commute on.

to11mtm 5y ago

> No idea what the author means with "lacking a Toyota Corolla equivalent". (E-)Bikes come in wide range of price and range, often from the same manufacturer. It's the components that dictate the final price, barely the frame, motor or battery where less choice exists than with the other components. If I had to guess, It's that a lot of the US e-bikes seem to fall either into the category of being marketed to various existing known US rider segments. But those segments are people that care about the gear on the bike, they might care bout tweaking and playing with it, etc etc. Lets pretend those companies (like Specialized) are playing Buick and Lincoln in the E-Bike segment. We also have all these really cheap e-bikes on Amazon. These are (at least, perception wise) typically playing in the 1990s PentaStar and 1990s Kia segment. In other words, they're cheaper, but there's this expectation that you'll have to fix things more often and there's definitely some annoying cheap-outs in places. A Corolla e-bike, would basically be a boring piece of wonderbread. It would probably be best packaged as a 700c Wide tire hybrid or 26" with 1.5" city/gravel-worthy tires. It would have simple, reliable components. If it had shimano parts, I'd hope that most of them would have part numbers starting with a 3 (IIRC that would put it around Altus-ish level?) Double Wall rims (I don't think you'd even want to try otherwise on an american e-bike) and just say 'f it', go 36 spoke and 4 cross if you can manage. In other words, Boring and reliable, marketed that way. Maybe it -does- exist but I haven't seen it yet in my searches (that's more or less what I'd want, frankly) > We will though see ABS from Bosch soon, not sure if that's such a good idea or even necessary at the low speeds of a <20mph ebike. If I had to guess, this is because lots of casual folks want disc brakes on a bike, but don't know how to use them properly, because unfortunately a lot of folks in this country remember trying to stop on their parent's Schwinns with worn out rubber, nearly frictionless chrome wheels, and turkey wing bar-levers; AKA their first reflex is to clench the brakes and they're very likely to endo. Doesn't help that in the US we have a strange litigious relationship with Cycling, there have been some pretty interesting lawsuits over the decades due to safety complaints. Johnson v. Derby would be a specific one that comes to mind. The lawsuit that nearly bankrupted the shop I once worked at (effectively did cripple it to a slow death/change in ownership) is another. > This is probably the US-centric view, but with a certain threshold of cyclists the wide middle of bike sales is practical bikes for short rides in the city with a hub dynamo a basket or rack for you shopping. Certainly not toys or sporty bikes. Yeah, US Centric, somewhat because the majority our cities are designed around cars. This is why we talk a lot about things like 'food poverty,' because there are cities where the lack of a car makes it nearly impossible for folks to get food (Short of walking to the local 'convenience store' that charges markups and has limited selection.) Ironically, E-Bikes could help in some of these situations, but it still requires a bit of a paradigm shift. Which is a shame. I got into riding in college, and I did at least as much riding for 'work/shopping/etc' as I did for pleasure. Heck of the thousands of miles my mountain bike has logged, probably 50 of it has been 'trails'. But I'm in a minority.

rdtwo 5y ago

I don’t get it what an ebike really brings that wasn’t already available in a moped or scooter? At least for me the #1 reason I don’t bike much is that there is no way to get places safely. Sharing the road with cars is quite risky while not quite motor cycle risky still very high risk that’s simply not worth it.

TaylorAlexander 5y ago
As someone who did loads of mountain biking in high school, I like bicycles more than mopeds or scooters. It is hard for me to explain why, but I’d feel more comfortable going off road on a bicycle, it feels cooler, and it’s just what I’m used to.
cbdumas 5y ago
Can't speak for everywhere but in Washington state almost anything sold as a scooter or moped in fact requires a full motorcycle endorsement, liability insurance, annual registration, etc. The cutoff for a motorcycle endorsement is a max 49cc motor or 2 brake horsepower, which excludes nearly everything sold as a scooter that I can find. You are certainly right that in most of the US biking infrastructure is embarrassingly bad, hopefully if pedal-assist ebikes get more popular that will spur more investment in bike paths and separated infrastructure.
- rdtwo 5y ago
  I see the appeal in using them to skirt regulations and travel in the bike only trails or to go into dnr lands or non motorized trails but they are also like 50-60lb bikes. Super heavy and not a lot of fun to just pedal without assistance.
closeparen 5y ago
The right to use bike lanes and to park on sidewalks / inside buildings.

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago

> No idea what the author means with "lacking a Toyota Corolla equivalent". An older metaphor for the same might be "The Model T Ford" of $product. As in, the influential model that brought the product to the masses, because it was more affordable, had good reliability and sold in huge volume: "The Ford Model T Is generally regarded as the first affordable automobile, which made car travel available to middle-class Americans. The relatively low price ... The Ford Model T was named the most influential car of the 20th century" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T

tonyedgecombe 5y ago

>We will though see ABS from Bosch soon, not sure if that's such a good idea or even necessary at the low speeds of a <20mph ebike It might have saved me a broken arm. I had not long had my European spec e-bike and forgot the brakes were reversed when I arrived at a damp corner. I touched what I thought was the rear brake and went straight down.

WelcomeShorty 5y ago
> the brakes were reversed Compared to a motorcycle, I assume?
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  Compared to a UK bicycle.
TomK32 5y ago
British? Autsch. Why not swap the brake cables? Not a big problem even for hydraulic brakes. It's a 20~30 minutes job for a mechanic.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  >Why not swap the brake cables? They come out of the left side of the frame and one of them isn't quite long enough. I've got used to it now.

foxyv 5y ago

> lacking a Toyota Corolla equivalent I think this is referring to reliability and cost together. Although I would point the author at the Priority Current. That thing will probably ride until the wheels fall off. Belt drive and internally geared with a bottom bracket motor. https://www.prioritybicycles.com/products/current https://www.prioritybicycles.com/products/current