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It's funny how the author frames this post in a very economic way. Personally, I would never describe reading a book as something where I'm investing and/or ext

It's funny how the author frames this post in a very economic way. Personally, I would never describe reading a book as something where I'm investing and/or extracting value. It's extra ironic that the entire issue they're describing is caused exactly by such (IMHO) over-economic thinking.

boomlinde 5y ago
Are you trying to tell me that some random self-help dude shower thought isn't making you get better at being human?
stdbrouw 5y ago
Framing it as paying a price to be paid might be a bit awkward, but surely the idea that we often make aspirational purchases without thinking through what it will take to actually get any enjoyment out of those items afterwards, resonates with many and has little to do with ultra-utilitarian thinking?
jiggawatts 5y ago
I do! A long time ago I started computing entertainment in terms of quality hours per dollar. So for example a good book might cost $20 but last ten hours of high quality entertainment, which is very good value at $2 per hour. Movie tickets are not-so-good at something like $20 per hour, $40+ if I have a date and we're buying snacks. Some computer games are ludicrously efficient. I never paid a cent for some games and played them for thousands of hours. Even factoring in the cost of the PC and electricity, we're looking at cents per hour. Holidays are the worst, at something like $1K+ per day or $60 per waking hour. I had to explain to the missus that we're wasting money going to a so-so restaurant on an overseas holiday. Since we've already sunk thousands into just being present at that location, and every hour was costing us Real Money, we may as well go to restaurant that's just shy of 5 stars and costs triple digits. Do the sky dive. Then do a dive under the ocean. Snowboard. See something spectacular! Otherwise, what's the point? We're burning money for what... doing nothing... but in a different part of the planet!?
- jll29 5y ago
  That is a very micro-economical view. There is some merit into investing from an "hours of fulfilment resulting from the investment" perspective, but if you overdo things, it may actually spoil most of your vacations. If in every moment, you reflect what you could have done, and calculate the hourly opportunity cost instead of enjoying the moment, any money spent on being right under that clear summer sky with romantically sparkling stars on the French coast will degrade to a spreadsheet exercise. My recommendation: use such considerations in the planning phase, but not _during_ a vacation or date! "Be here now."
- smorgusofborg 5y ago
  If you watch shows like "No Reservations" a traveler who is competent in gastronomy will avoid near 5-star restaurants. They are largely copies of an international standard you could get anywhere, certainly much closer to home.
- soneca 5y ago
  Doing “nothing” in a different part of the planet is my kind of vacation. Those “spectacular” things might be there occasionally, but I don’t optimize for them. I optimize for having a good time with people I care in places where we get know how other people live, taste what other people eat, appreciate different landscapes. I also optimize for relaxing and thinking about life, without the regular worries I have at home. Walking around to see how different cities are. I don’t optimize for “stories to tell”, “adrenaline”, or “instagrammable moments”. We are different people and there is nothing wrong with your view on vacations. The only issue that I see is when you try to convince your partner (I’m not sure if that’s what “missus” mean) that this a “waste of money”. “Waste” here is completely subjective. There is nothing objective about it as you seem to imply. So I would make sure that they spontaneously agree with your perspective, before trying to convince them of what is a waste of money and what’s not.
- skeeter2020 5y ago
  I understand (and am prone to) this line of thinking, and found it most prevalent when I was doing a lot of consulting. The problem is you also start to see ALL time as money and thinking opportunity cost of everything: playing with your kids, going for a walk, doing absolutely nothing. I found it really stressful and unhealthy and it took years to break this habit.
jasode 5y ago
>It's funny how the author frames this post in a very economic way. [...] over-economic thinking. He's not framing it in an economic way. It's just that the words "pay/paid" are very common conversational shorthand for "effort you have to expend". E.g. when parents often say "you have to _invest_ in your children" -- or -- "if you don't exercise consistent discipline when they're young, you will _pay_ the _price_ when they're older" ... the parents are not being clinical economists. If you're still sidetracked by "pay/price", the alternative metaphor for the same concept is: Don't buy stuff for the "fantasy self" you're imagining. Instead, you have to be brutally honest in your self-assessment of what you will realistically use. I.e. Don't buy a stack of cookbooks when you don't really have the motivation to cook. Thinking that the colorful photos of completed dishes will spur you to action is fantasy. Yes, somebody might still complain that "fantasy self" is wrong because "I would never frame cooking food as a field of speculative fiction genre in literature" ... then I guess we're in a never-ending loop of focusing on the metaphor instead of the underlying message.
j1elo 5y ago
Thanks! I thought exactly the same. "A book costs 10 hours" ?? oh come on, no, 10 hours is the amount of time you can have the privilege of "wasting" while relaxing in a confy sofa with a cup of tea, while being entertained or learning, _thanks_ to that book. It't not a cost. It's a gift. Some people need to learn how to relax, forget about maximizing value of everything, and just enjoy the act of doing nothing.

boomlinde 5y ago

Are you trying to tell me that some random self-help dude shower thought isn't making you get better at being human?

stdbrouw 5y ago

Framing it as paying a price to be paid might be a bit awkward, but surely the idea that we often make aspirational purchases without thinking through what it will take to actually get any enjoyment out of those items afterwards, resonates with many and has little to do with ultra-utilitarian thinking?

jiggawatts 5y ago

I do! A long time ago I started computing entertainment in terms of quality hours per dollar. So for example a good book might cost $20 but last ten hours of high quality entertainment, which is very good value at $2 per hour. Movie tickets are not-so-good at something like $20 per hour, $40+ if I have a date and we're buying snacks. Some computer games are ludicrously efficient. I never paid a cent for some games and played them for thousands of hours. Even factoring in the cost of the PC and electricity, we're looking at cents per hour. Holidays are the worst, at something like $1K+ per day or $60 per waking hour. I had to explain to the missus that we're wasting money going to a so-so restaurant on an overseas holiday. Since we've already sunk thousands into just being present at that location, and every hour was costing us Real Money, we may as well go to restaurant that's just shy of 5 stars and costs triple digits. Do the sky dive. Then do a dive under the ocean. Snowboard. See something spectacular! Otherwise, what's the point? We're burning money for what... doing nothing... but in a different part of the planet!?

jll29 5y ago
That is a very micro-economical view. There is some merit into investing from an "hours of fulfilment resulting from the investment" perspective, but if you overdo things, it may actually spoil most of your vacations. If in every moment, you reflect what you could have done, and calculate the hourly opportunity cost instead of enjoying the moment, any money spent on being right under that clear summer sky with romantically sparkling stars on the French coast will degrade to a spreadsheet exercise. My recommendation: use such considerations in the planning phase, but not _during_ a vacation or date! "Be here now."
smorgusofborg 5y ago
If you watch shows like "No Reservations" a traveler who is competent in gastronomy will avoid near 5-star restaurants. They are largely copies of an international standard you could get anywhere, certainly much closer to home.
soneca 5y ago
Doing “nothing” in a different part of the planet is my kind of vacation. Those “spectacular” things might be there occasionally, but I don’t optimize for them. I optimize for having a good time with people I care in places where we get know how other people live, taste what other people eat, appreciate different landscapes. I also optimize for relaxing and thinking about life, without the regular worries I have at home. Walking around to see how different cities are. I don’t optimize for “stories to tell”, “adrenaline”, or “instagrammable moments”. We are different people and there is nothing wrong with your view on vacations. The only issue that I see is when you try to convince your partner (I’m not sure if that’s what “missus” mean) that this a “waste of money”. “Waste” here is completely subjective. There is nothing objective about it as you seem to imply. So I would make sure that they spontaneously agree with your perspective, before trying to convince them of what is a waste of money and what’s not.
skeeter2020 5y ago
I understand (and am prone to) this line of thinking, and found it most prevalent when I was doing a lot of consulting. The problem is you also start to see ALL time as money and thinking opportunity cost of everything: playing with your kids, going for a walk, doing absolutely nothing. I found it really stressful and unhealthy and it took years to break this habit.

jasode 5y ago

>It's funny how the author frames this post in a very economic way. [...] over-economic thinking. He's not framing it in an economic way. It's just that the words "pay/paid" are very common conversational shorthand for "effort you have to expend". E.g. when parents often say "you have to _invest_ in your children" -- or -- "if you don't exercise consistent discipline when they're young, you will _pay_ the _price_ when they're older" ... the parents are not being clinical economists. If you're still sidetracked by "pay/price", the alternative metaphor for the same concept is: Don't buy stuff for the "fantasy self" you're imagining. Instead, you have to be brutally honest in your self-assessment of what you will realistically use. I.e. Don't buy a stack of cookbooks when you don't really have the motivation to cook. Thinking that the colorful photos of completed dishes will spur you to action is fantasy. Yes, somebody might still complain that "fantasy self" is wrong because "I would never frame cooking food as a field of speculative fiction genre in literature" ... then I guess we're in a never-ending loop of focusing on the metaphor instead of the underlying message.

j1elo 5y ago

Thanks! I thought exactly the same. "A book costs 10 hours" ?? oh come on, no, 10 hours is the amount of time you can have the privilege of "wasting" while relaxing in a confy sofa with a cup of tea, while being entertained or learning, _thanks_ to that book. It't not a cost. It's a gift. Some people need to learn how to relax, forget about maximizing value of everything, and just enjoy the act of doing nothing.