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You need independent motors to run all those things after you removed the belts. You don't save any mechanical complication that way. Those components are now j

by lvs 5y ago

You need independent motors to run all those things after you removed the belts. You don't save any mechanical complication that way. Those components are now just electrically-driven from their own motors rather than mechanically driven from belts.

Tade0 5y ago
> You don't save any mechanical complication that way. Actually, you do if you count the moving parts. A belt is always at least two pulleys and a belt. A motor is a motor. One moving part vs three. In some cases you don't need anything at all - hybrids don't use alternators, some (like Toyota's HSD) don't even have a stepper motor for throttling and a dedicated starter motor - the two motor-generators perform this function.
LeonM 5y ago
Well, I guess 'it depends'. Generally I agree with hybrid systems being more complex that ICE only systems, but having a high(er) voltage electricity source and powerful electric motor available does remove some complexity. Depending on the setup, the hybrid electric motor also acts a the starter, and generator for the ICE. The hybrid drive may be used to move the vehicle in reverse direction (depending on how the hybrid system is implemented), removing the need for a reverse gear. Electric power steering can powered directly from the hybrid battery, simplifying the steering rack. So it does remove some complexity, but from an engineering point of view, I still think they are just too complex. Manufacturers just should give their customers the option to have full electric models, or fully ICE powered for those living in very remote areas. After having driven some of the supposedly latest and greatest hybrid powered Lexus models (AFAIK Toyota is still king of hybrid drivetrains) I am not convinced. They drive nice, but would have been better if they were fully electric. I just cant believe how badly Toyota missed the EV market.
- yurishimo 5y ago
  There are a lot of new Toyota models slated for release this year. By December, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them leapfrog Hyundai and Volkswagen if they can get parts and production stays on schedule. I also think some of these automakers are riding a fine line and trying not to cannibalize the final years of the ICE lineup. Notice how many sporty driving cars are being released the last 2 years. It’s very likely those cars will be illegal to sell in a decade. It makes sense for them to produce those cars now and get a sale while they keep working on battery and range in a lab behind the scenes. The key to that balance though is to actually put in the R&D so when they do decide to pump out EVs, they’re competitive to the market. If Toyota and Honda are playing catch up releasing 200 mile range EVs while the early adopters are moving on to 350+, then that will be the beginning of their downfall similar to the big 3 in the 80s.
sokoloff 5y ago
You relax the location and orientation constraints on the satellite systems. No longer do they need to have a pulley in the plane of the rest of the belts. You may be able to eliminate or improve the reliability of seals now that you don’t need to take rotating power in. You can design for optimum RPM rather than having to accept varying RPM (possibly 0) scaled to whatever size constraints the pulley packaging limits you to. You can use electronic controls instead of electro-mechanical clutches. You can have these systems report status and take control instructions over CAN. All of this in exchange for adding over-current protection, some wire/connectors, and some kind of control mechanism (typically relay or IGBT).

by lvs 5y ago

Tade0 5y ago

> You don't save any mechanical complication that way. Actually, you do if you count the moving parts. A belt is always at least two pulleys and a belt. A motor is a motor. One moving part vs three. In some cases you don't need anything at all - hybrids don't use alternators, some (like Toyota's HSD) don't even have a stepper motor for throttling and a dedicated starter motor - the two motor-generators perform this function.

LeonM 5y ago

Well, I guess 'it depends'. Generally I agree with hybrid systems being more complex that ICE only systems, but having a high(er) voltage electricity source and powerful electric motor available does remove some complexity. Depending on the setup, the hybrid electric motor also acts a the starter, and generator for the ICE. The hybrid drive may be used to move the vehicle in reverse direction (depending on how the hybrid system is implemented), removing the need for a reverse gear. Electric power steering can powered directly from the hybrid battery, simplifying the steering rack. So it does remove some complexity, but from an engineering point of view, I still think they are just too complex. Manufacturers just should give their customers the option to have full electric models, or fully ICE powered for those living in very remote areas. After having driven some of the supposedly latest and greatest hybrid powered Lexus models (AFAIK Toyota is still king of hybrid drivetrains) I am not convinced. They drive nice, but would have been better if they were fully electric. I just cant believe how badly Toyota missed the EV market.

yurishimo 5y ago
There are a lot of new Toyota models slated for release this year. By December, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them leapfrog Hyundai and Volkswagen if they can get parts and production stays on schedule. I also think some of these automakers are riding a fine line and trying not to cannibalize the final years of the ICE lineup. Notice how many sporty driving cars are being released the last 2 years. It’s very likely those cars will be illegal to sell in a decade. It makes sense for them to produce those cars now and get a sale while they keep working on battery and range in a lab behind the scenes. The key to that balance though is to actually put in the R&D so when they do decide to pump out EVs, they’re competitive to the market. If Toyota and Honda are playing catch up releasing 200 mile range EVs while the early adopters are moving on to 350+, then that will be the beginning of their downfall similar to the big 3 in the 80s.

sokoloff 5y ago

You relax the location and orientation constraints on the satellite systems. No longer do they need to have a pulley in the plane of the rest of the belts. You may be able to eliminate or improve the reliability of seals now that you don’t need to take rotating power in. You can design for optimum RPM rather than having to accept varying RPM (possibly 0) scaled to whatever size constraints the pulley packaging limits you to. You can use electronic controls instead of electro-mechanical clutches. You can have these systems report status and take control instructions over CAN. All of this in exchange for adding over-current protection, some wire/connectors, and some kind of control mechanism (typically relay or IGBT).