8 ms·

Pfizer CEO sees annual Covid vaccine rather than frequent boosters

11 points by awb 5y ago

joelbondurant1 5y ago
version_five 5y ago
Coke CEO sees a can of pop served alongside each meal.
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  rather than 2 cans every hour? Boosters are currently around 6 months, a yearly shot is fewer vaccines
  - version_five 5y ago
    My point is the person selling the thing should not be considered the authority on how often you buy it.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      Immunity has seemed to wane every 3 to 6 months. Is that not certain? Florida's big Delta-surge was just in August. And yet, Omicron surged through January in the state. In just 5 months, people's natural immunity has collectively declined to the point for a new surge. There's a theory that repeatedly catching COVID19 will eventually make our immune systems stronger each time and time again. But until then, repeated boosters seem like the answer (especially if the booster is as good as, or even better, at building immunity).
      - ostenning 5y ago
        > But until then, repeated boosters seem like the answer I think this sort of group think mentality is increasingly detrimental. I keep hearing that “we need to boost” without people really weighing up the nuances and tradeoffs for such a policy. The reality is Israel has shown that second boosters don’t really improve immunity all that much [1] That vaccine induced myocarditis rates are now higher than covid induced rates [2] That healthy people statistically are less likely to have serious disease, especially so if they have had primary vaccination and that modelling suggests that the omicron wave in the west will be on the downtrend, following the UK, shortly. Inferring that most people will have been exposed to the virus and built their own immunity [3]. So given this information, and considering I had an adverse reaction from my vaccination, why would I listen to this idea that “boosters are the answer” when there is mounting evidence everywhere that this maybe isn't a good idea for everyone? We need to shake this idea that they are the only sensible answer because they have had real costs for some people. [1] - https://www.israel21c.org/israel-finds-4th-vaccine-dose-not-as-effective-vs-omicron/ https://www.israel21c.org/israel-finds-4th-vaccine-dose-not-... [2] - https://youtu.be/xzVoS-1TIWI https://youtu.be/xzVoS-1TIWI [3] - https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/uk-daily-new-covid-cases https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/uk-daily-new-covid-cases
        dragontamer 5y ago
        > That vaccine induced myocarditis rates are now higher than covid induced rates Are you factoring in the fact that myocarditis drops with more boosters? The 2nd shot has the highest myocarditis rate. The 3rd shot has less, and I'd expect the 4th to have even less. As long as side-effects drop more than the boosters help (especially if boosters are reformulated for the dominant COVID19 strain), then the total cost of boosting is what? $20 or so? https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-11-19/04-COVID-Shimabukuro-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-... EDIT: Wrong pdf. I meant this one: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-11-19/06-COVID-Oliver-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-... > The reality is Israel has shown that second boosters don’t really improve immunity all that much [1] Have you factored in the fact that all mRNA producers are making Omicron-specific boosters? Of course not, those boosters aren't available yet. > So given this information, and considering I had an adverse reaction from my vaccination, why would I listen to this idea that “boosters are the answer” when there is mounting evidence everywhere that this maybe isn't a good idea for everyone? Its a very simple question. COVID19 damage prevented vs vaccine damage caused. If the vaccine causes more damage, we don't boost. If COVID19 causes more damage, we boost. At every step of the booster-question, we revise and double check. The 3rd shot was overwhelmingly a benefit vs Delta and Omicron. 4th shot is under initial studies. Any other methodology is politics. We have more than enough capability to study things like the 4th shot before recommending it to everybody. But my expectations, given the science and the future manufacturing of these things is that a 4th shot will be necessary, and will probably be of benefit.
      - peakaboo 5y ago
        If you need the vaccines to get immunity, why haven't most people who never vaccinated died or ended up in hospitals?
    - BoorishBears 5y ago
      What on earth are you talking about? Did you read the article? He's talking about the offerings Pfizer is expecting to have. Pfizer is expecting to have a yearly vaccine rather than a frequent booster for sale. - The people making the thing are sharing their expectations on what they have to offer, there's nothing clever or relevant about your analogy. We've reached the point where any empty display of cynicism is seen as weighty as long as it goes against the "COVID establishment"...
  - nojokes 5y ago
    Boosters are not currently around 6 months. Can you get second booster now? Nope, even when you got yours 6 months ago. Pfizer CEO also for sure is well aware that his companies vaccine did not make any meaningful difference after 4th shot against omicron and better strategy would be to make a strain specific vaccine. I am not sure if this could be feasible. Omicron pushed through the world like wildfire. There was no meaningful time to produce or even develop a vaccine before it was already everywhere and circulating deep in community. Omicron was very different from the cluster of previous variants. When something pops up from another direction like this then there would be probably no meaningful time to react to it. Perhaps a little too pessimistic view. Maybe set of multiple antigenes from the cluster outer ring does the job or a vaccine against inner machinery of the virus - this should be more stable in time.
- cft 5y ago
  And mandatory too?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - tinus_hn 5y ago
    For an answer, please drink verification can
qwertyuiop_ 5y ago
Is there a point where the body doesn’t respond after say 20th shot ? Are there studies on this ?
- BenFrantzDale 5y ago
  We have annual flu shots. Naively I’d expect COVID shots to be the same if not more frequent for the first few years while global immunity is low and so variants keep evolving quickly.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    Moderna is making a flu + COVID19 shot, under this expectation. If that's to our benefit, then we'll know after its tested. If not, we'll have the capability to refuse the vaccine at that point.
  - peteradio 5y ago
    Annual flu shots work worse the second year: https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2014/11/study-adds-more-data-effects-consecutive-year-flu-shots https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2014/11/study-ad...
kbelder 5y ago
Both times I've had a Covid vaccination I've been bed-ridden for three days, with high fever, weakness, chills. This was after having Covid four months earlier. I'm not getting a booster. I think at this point the effect will be worse than Covid itself. I'm not going to make myself that sick on a yearly basis, indefinitely ongoing. At a certain point the damage it does to me is worse than the damage it prevents. Just to emphasize: I'm pro-vax. But the furor over the boosters seems frantic and irrational.
- mft_ 5y ago
  Anecdata, but I had no side effects from 2x Pfizer, then ~24h flu/hangover symptoms from a Moderna booster. Friends’ experiences equally unpredictable. So… you may get no symptoms at all from a booster - and may be worth switching the manufacturer? Bigger picture, while it’s totally your choice, I’d dispute your logic RE: not accepting a booster. COVID is mostly somewhere between minimal and a week or two of unpleasant symptoms in most cases, but more rarely can obviously cause major symptoms including death, and also ‘long COVID’. This is what you’re hedging against with a vaccine. As unpleasant as 24-72hrs of feeling crappy is, I’d take it over months of ‘long COVID’, and obviously over anything worse.
- nojokes 5y ago
  Stats, stats, stats. Hospitalizations among people who got booster are incredibly low but meaningful difference appears from age of 50.
oriettaxx 5y ago
Let's take it easy: * https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nomen_est_omen https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nomen_est_omen * https://www.nglish.com/spanish/en/burla https://www.nglish.com/spanish/en/burla :)
pcdoodle 5y ago
Who didn't see IAAS coming? I'm sure news sponsorship didn't add any hysteria.

11 points by awb 5y ago

joelbondurant1 5y ago

version_five 5y ago

Coke CEO sees a can of pop served alongside each meal.

BoorishBears 5y ago
rather than 2 cans every hour? Boosters are currently around 6 months, a yearly shot is fewer vaccines
- version_five 5y ago
  My point is the person selling the thing should not be considered the authority on how often you buy it.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    Immunity has seemed to wane every 3 to 6 months. Is that not certain? Florida's big Delta-surge was just in August. And yet, Omicron surged through January in the state. In just 5 months, people's natural immunity has collectively declined to the point for a new surge. There's a theory that repeatedly catching COVID19 will eventually make our immune systems stronger each time and time again. But until then, repeated boosters seem like the answer (especially if the booster is as good as, or even better, at building immunity).
    - ostenning 5y ago
      > But until then, repeated boosters seem like the answer I think this sort of group think mentality is increasingly detrimental. I keep hearing that “we need to boost” without people really weighing up the nuances and tradeoffs for such a policy. The reality is Israel has shown that second boosters don’t really improve immunity all that much [1] That vaccine induced myocarditis rates are now higher than covid induced rates [2] That healthy people statistically are less likely to have serious disease, especially so if they have had primary vaccination and that modelling suggests that the omicron wave in the west will be on the downtrend, following the UK, shortly. Inferring that most people will have been exposed to the virus and built their own immunity [3]. So given this information, and considering I had an adverse reaction from my vaccination, why would I listen to this idea that “boosters are the answer” when there is mounting evidence everywhere that this maybe isn't a good idea for everyone? We need to shake this idea that they are the only sensible answer because they have had real costs for some people. [1] - https://www.israel21c.org/israel-finds-4th-vaccine-dose-not-as-effective-vs-omicron/ https://www.israel21c.org/israel-finds-4th-vaccine-dose-not-... [2] - https://youtu.be/xzVoS-1TIWI https://youtu.be/xzVoS-1TIWI [3] - https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/uk-daily-new-covid-cases https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/uk-daily-new-covid-cases
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        > That vaccine induced myocarditis rates are now higher than covid induced rates Are you factoring in the fact that myocarditis drops with more boosters? The 2nd shot has the highest myocarditis rate. The 3rd shot has less, and I'd expect the 4th to have even less. As long as side-effects drop more than the boosters help (especially if boosters are reformulated for the dominant COVID19 strain), then the total cost of boosting is what? $20 or so? https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-11-19/04-COVID-Shimabukuro-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-... EDIT: Wrong pdf. I meant this one: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-11-19/06-COVID-Oliver-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-... > The reality is Israel has shown that second boosters don’t really improve immunity all that much [1] Have you factored in the fact that all mRNA producers are making Omicron-specific boosters? Of course not, those boosters aren't available yet. > So given this information, and considering I had an adverse reaction from my vaccination, why would I listen to this idea that “boosters are the answer” when there is mounting evidence everywhere that this maybe isn't a good idea for everyone? Its a very simple question. COVID19 damage prevented vs vaccine damage caused. If the vaccine causes more damage, we don't boost. If COVID19 causes more damage, we boost. At every step of the booster-question, we revise and double check. The 3rd shot was overwhelmingly a benefit vs Delta and Omicron. 4th shot is under initial studies. Any other methodology is politics. We have more than enough capability to study things like the 4th shot before recommending it to everybody. But my expectations, given the science and the future manufacturing of these things is that a 4th shot will be necessary, and will probably be of benefit.
    - peakaboo 5y ago
      If you need the vaccines to get immunity, why haven't most people who never vaccinated died or ended up in hospitals?
  - BoorishBears 5y ago
    What on earth are you talking about? Did you read the article? He's talking about the offerings Pfizer is expecting to have. Pfizer is expecting to have a yearly vaccine rather than a frequent booster for sale. - The people making the thing are sharing their expectations on what they have to offer, there's nothing clever or relevant about your analogy. We've reached the point where any empty display of cynicism is seen as weighty as long as it goes against the "COVID establishment"...
- nojokes 5y ago
  Boosters are not currently around 6 months. Can you get second booster now? Nope, even when you got yours 6 months ago. Pfizer CEO also for sure is well aware that his companies vaccine did not make any meaningful difference after 4th shot against omicron and better strategy would be to make a strain specific vaccine. I am not sure if this could be feasible. Omicron pushed through the world like wildfire. There was no meaningful time to produce or even develop a vaccine before it was already everywhere and circulating deep in community. Omicron was very different from the cluster of previous variants. When something pops up from another direction like this then there would be probably no meaningful time to react to it. Perhaps a little too pessimistic view. Maybe set of multiple antigenes from the cluster outer ring does the job or a vaccine against inner machinery of the virus - this should be more stable in time.
cft 5y ago
And mandatory too?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tinus_hn 5y ago
  For an answer, please drink verification can

qwertyuiop_ 5y ago

Is there a point where the body doesn’t respond after say 20th shot ? Are there studies on this ?

BenFrantzDale 5y ago
We have annual flu shots. Naively I’d expect COVID shots to be the same if not more frequent for the first few years while global immunity is low and so variants keep evolving quickly.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  Moderna is making a flu + COVID19 shot, under this expectation. If that's to our benefit, then we'll know after its tested. If not, we'll have the capability to refuse the vaccine at that point.
- peteradio 5y ago
  Annual flu shots work worse the second year: https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2014/11/study-adds-more-data-effects-consecutive-year-flu-shots https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2014/11/study-ad...

kbelder 5y ago

Both times I've had a Covid vaccination I've been bed-ridden for three days, with high fever, weakness, chills. This was after having Covid four months earlier. I'm not getting a booster. I think at this point the effect will be worse than Covid itself. I'm not going to make myself that sick on a yearly basis, indefinitely ongoing. At a certain point the damage it does to me is worse than the damage it prevents. Just to emphasize: I'm pro-vax. But the furor over the boosters seems frantic and irrational.

mft_ 5y ago
Anecdata, but I had no side effects from 2x Pfizer, then ~24h flu/hangover symptoms from a Moderna booster. Friends’ experiences equally unpredictable. So… you may get no symptoms at all from a booster - and may be worth switching the manufacturer? Bigger picture, while it’s totally your choice, I’d dispute your logic RE: not accepting a booster. COVID is mostly somewhere between minimal and a week or two of unpleasant symptoms in most cases, but more rarely can obviously cause major symptoms including death, and also ‘long COVID’. This is what you’re hedging against with a vaccine. As unpleasant as 24-72hrs of feeling crappy is, I’d take it over months of ‘long COVID’, and obviously over anything worse.
nojokes 5y ago
Stats, stats, stats. Hospitalizations among people who got booster are incredibly low but meaningful difference appears from age of 50.

oriettaxx 5y ago

Let's take it easy: * https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nomen_est_omen https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nomen_est_omen * https://www.nglish.com/spanish/en/burla https://www.nglish.com/spanish/en/burla :)

pcdoodle 5y ago

Who didn't see IAAS coming? I'm sure news sponsorship didn't add any hysteria.