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No. People do not understand. I try to explain it all the time and can never seem to get it across. I used to work at a company that had a hiring pipeline that

No. People do not understand. I try to explain it all the time and can never seem to get it across. I used to work at a company that had a hiring pipeline that took people with zero skills and trained them up to high paid tech workers in a few short years. It haunts me I can't convince more people to pursue this path.

pricci 5y ago
Where can I find such company?
- eatonphil 5y ago
  Midsized (100 employees) local tech companies in not top 10 metro regions (not NYC, SF, Seattle, Boston, LA, etc). Linode is an example. Regarding top metro regions though you can get started without a CS degree and without a bootcamp in tech support and make your way toward programming. But companies in the top metro regions tend to require _some_ degree whereas companies in the lesser metros are more fine with just work experience (like retail at Best Buy), intelligence and enthusiasm.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  Look for a technology focused company who's product definitely makes the world a worse place to live.
theknock23 5y ago
Great, keep on doing it until supply matches demand and you will be back at an average salary of 70k.
- Godel_unicode 5y ago
  This is not a zero sum game, no need to pull the ladder up behind you.
  - theknock23 5y ago
    You should learn basic economics before submitting such an asinine comment.
    - dang 5y ago
      You can't do this here. We've banned the account. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - curtisblaine 5y ago
    Why is it not?
    - invalidname 5y ago
      Because the more programmers you have the more software you need to write. As a tool vendor, our market is exploding. This was a market that was "problematic" just 10 years ago. Methodologies and scale are growing which means more developers. Markets are expanding where "everything" is becoming software driven. Generally, give me more programmers and I'll give you more things that need programming. Our world has barely begun automation.
      - curtisblaine 5y ago
        Not necessarily: maybe the faster you go, the sooner AIs will replace developers or low-code tools will get rid of juniors. Or maybe the market will physiologically contract because we though it would expand more than it will in reality. In all these three cases, and probably more that I can't imagine at the moment, the zero sum game would be real and would hit us hard.
        Godel_unicode 5y ago
        People have been making these exact arguments for almost as long as professional programmer has been a thing you could be. In an effort to overcome our subconscious loss aversion with data, we should back test these hypotheses. If you do that, you will see that every time someone has suggested a specific thing was going to result in fewer programmer jobs they have been quite wrong. Now we need to weigh the very real negative of screwing over other people who would like to also earn a decent income against the total lack of evidence that this will be bad for existing programmers. Do what your conscience tells you, I'm going to try and get other people to program.
cosmodisk 5y ago
The problem is that for an average Joe on the street programming often equates to rocket science. I'm not trying to downplay the industry and say that the dev jobs are easy, but unless someone tries to really look into it, understand what it actually entails, they would think that it's extremely super complicated and is beyond their capabilities. In the past,I did offer quite a few colleagues a chance to learn with full support and very likely a job at the end with a substantial pay rise. Nobody ever took it.
- vemodalen 5y ago
  You mention rocket science so I thought I would search: Here is entry-level US: 31000-45000$ in VA [0] Experience in orbit analysis and prediction Familiarity with a scripting language (i.e. Perl, Python) Second one 55000-65000$ in CO[1] work ethic (~60-70 hours/week) Experience programming in C, C++, Fortran (lol), Python, MATLAB and/or UNIX or kernels Am I missing something? [0] https://www.simplyhired.com/job/2vDPHRlmzl3C2V4hIDXUDxGjiy3tC6XpfPhHuxhkX36l2_W0FpFh8g?tk=1fq21ng913kmo000&tkt=serp&isp=0&q=astrodynamics https://www.simplyhired.com/job/2vDPHRlmzl3C2V4hIDXUDxGjiy3t... [1] https://www.simplyhired.com/search?q=astrodynamics&l=&job=TCbVhvpJDKRnd5QyiC1LkQ-XeMJSGaanmblyA0VoFEngPMZoRCHMKw https://www.simplyhired.com/search?q=astrodynamics&l=&job=TC...
  - aklemm 5y ago
    Yes, the history of rocket development and an appreciation of common expressions.
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  This is probably going to be peak HN comment, but - somehow I find rocket engines to be way simpler than a car or plane engine. And then there's biological systems that are way more complex.

pricci 5y ago

Where can I find such company?

eatonphil 5y ago
Midsized (100 employees) local tech companies in not top 10 metro regions (not NYC, SF, Seattle, Boston, LA, etc). Linode is an example. Regarding top metro regions though you can get started without a CS degree and without a bootcamp in tech support and make your way toward programming. But companies in the top metro regions tend to require _some_ degree whereas companies in the lesser metros are more fine with just work experience (like retail at Best Buy), intelligence and enthusiasm.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
Look for a technology focused company who's product definitely makes the world a worse place to live.

theknock23 5y ago

Great, keep on doing it until supply matches demand and you will be back at an average salary of 70k.

Godel_unicode 5y ago
This is not a zero sum game, no need to pull the ladder up behind you.
- theknock23 5y ago
  You should learn basic economics before submitting such an asinine comment.
  - dang 5y ago
    You can't do this here. We've banned the account. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- curtisblaine 5y ago
  Why is it not?
  - invalidname 5y ago
    Because the more programmers you have the more software you need to write. As a tool vendor, our market is exploding. This was a market that was "problematic" just 10 years ago. Methodologies and scale are growing which means more developers. Markets are expanding where "everything" is becoming software driven. Generally, give me more programmers and I'll give you more things that need programming. Our world has barely begun automation.
    - curtisblaine 5y ago
      Not necessarily: maybe the faster you go, the sooner AIs will replace developers or low-code tools will get rid of juniors. Or maybe the market will physiologically contract because we though it would expand more than it will in reality. In all these three cases, and probably more that I can't imagine at the moment, the zero sum game would be real and would hit us hard.
      - Godel_unicode 5y ago
        People have been making these exact arguments for almost as long as professional programmer has been a thing you could be. In an effort to overcome our subconscious loss aversion with data, we should back test these hypotheses. If you do that, you will see that every time someone has suggested a specific thing was going to result in fewer programmer jobs they have been quite wrong. Now we need to weigh the very real negative of screwing over other people who would like to also earn a decent income against the total lack of evidence that this will be bad for existing programmers. Do what your conscience tells you, I'm going to try and get other people to program.

cosmodisk 5y ago

The problem is that for an average Joe on the street programming often equates to rocket science. I'm not trying to downplay the industry and say that the dev jobs are easy, but unless someone tries to really look into it, understand what it actually entails, they would think that it's extremely super complicated and is beyond their capabilities. In the past,I did offer quite a few colleagues a chance to learn with full support and very likely a job at the end with a substantial pay rise. Nobody ever took it.

vemodalen 5y ago
You mention rocket science so I thought I would search: Here is entry-level US: 31000-45000$ in VA [0] Experience in orbit analysis and prediction Familiarity with a scripting language (i.e. Perl, Python) Second one 55000-65000$ in CO[1] work ethic (~60-70 hours/week) Experience programming in C, C++, Fortran (lol), Python, MATLAB and/or UNIX or kernels Am I missing something? [0] https://www.simplyhired.com/job/2vDPHRlmzl3C2V4hIDXUDxGjiy3tC6XpfPhHuxhkX36l2_W0FpFh8g?tk=1fq21ng913kmo000&tkt=serp&isp=0&q=astrodynamics https://www.simplyhired.com/job/2vDPHRlmzl3C2V4hIDXUDxGjiy3t... [1] https://www.simplyhired.com/search?q=astrodynamics&l=&job=TCbVhvpJDKRnd5QyiC1LkQ-XeMJSGaanmblyA0VoFEngPMZoRCHMKw https://www.simplyhired.com/search?q=astrodynamics&l=&job=TC...
- aklemm 5y ago
  Yes, the history of rocket development and an appreciation of common expressions.
dzhiurgis 5y ago
This is probably going to be peak HN comment, but - somehow I find rocket engines to be way simpler than a car or plane engine. And then there's biological systems that are way more complex.