7 ms·

Every time an E Ink article is posted the patent defeatism is inevitable. I’m curious if there are other techniques to implement reflective(?) displays being ex

Every time an E Ink article is posted the patent defeatism is inevitable. I’m curious if there are other techniques to implement reflective(?) displays being explored that wouldn’t fall within the scope of E Ink’s defensible moat, or, if their parents are simply so broad as to stifle most hopes of accessible solutions and broader consumer/professional adoption. Frankly, I’m quite sick of straining my eyes and circadian rhythm for 8hrs+ a day

christkv 5y ago
The one laptop per child had one but never went anywhere
- Sunspark 5y ago
  It had a transflective LCD.
throwthere 5y ago
When does the original parent run out? Will that be the end of this or are there other “process” aka bs patents coming?
- empalms 5y ago
  Good question. Skimming the uspto’s documentation, identifying the term does not appear to be a straightforward process [0]. Someone with more experience in the matter might be able to say. [0] https://www.uspto.gov/patents/laws/patent-term-calculator https://www.uspto.gov/patents/laws/patent-term-calculator
- beckman466 5y ago
  > When does the original parent run out? ten years. so just after the world collapses. it's so great that we are blocking the development of vital tech /s. i mean, imagine a world without today's level of production of laptop screens/OLED TVs/LCD TVs/phone/tablet screens. all those toxic chemicals. there's so many things we don't need a flashlight being shone in our faces for, and (as someone else in this thread already mentioned) our circadian rhythm being disrupted for. of course e-ink tech and the health of our eyes and sleep is just the tip of the iceberg. in the larger perspective capitalist firms are suffocating the earth with their single-use, non-modular, non-upgradeable, black box e-waste. they're not even 'tools' to me because the living and breathing Silicon Valley AI is using and abusing us (the workers) through these 'products'. i abhor the intellectual property system and monopolized vital technologies, it means capitalism makes the worst technological tools.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    > capitalist firms are suffocating the earth Communist countries are the most polluted countries in the world. https://kafkadesk.org/2020/08/12/poland-stands-out-as-the-most-polluted-country-in-europe/ https://kafkadesk.org/2020/08/12/poland-stands-out-as-the-mo...
    - djrobstep 5y ago
      ??? Poland isn’t a communist country.
      - sumeno 5y ago
        Neither are Hungary, Czech Republic, or Slovakia. This guy is just really confused I guess
        WalterBright 5y ago
        They all were not very long ago. The pollution didn't happen overnight. Much of their polluting industry was built by the communists.
    - mhh__ 5y ago
      https://www.perc.org/2019/05/17/socialism-is-bad-for-the-environment/ https://www.perc.org/2019/05/17/socialism-is-bad-for-the-env...
    - beckman466 5y ago
      > Communist countries are the most polluted countries in the world. what world economic system is committing mass ecocide and crossing our planetary boundaries by exhausting natural resources?
jMyles 5y ago
...or if they can simply be produced in a jurisdiction which does not recognize this patent?
- slater 5y ago
  ...and then NOT sold in jurisdictions where the patent is recognized.
  - jMyles 5y ago
    This does not seem like a difficult problem to solve, compared to the actual engineering, production, and scaling challenges.
    - ineedasername 5y ago
      The problem would require turning the entire global IP & supporting legal systems on their head. WTO, nation-specific laws, etc. Technology seems to move a lot faster than paradigm shifts in government.
      - jMyles 5y ago
        This is like saying that, if you want to use a particular prohibited plant or compound, you need to first end drug prohibition and the worldwide system of cartel profiteering. While it is most certainly a good idea to do that, you don't need to wait until the process is complete to include these items in your diet.
        ineedasername 5y ago
        Then we're talking about different things, because I was thinking in terms of mass market adoption. A few instances of gray market or IP "theft" here and there isn't going to cause much of a stir. But if Samsung/Apple/other companies want to make a large scale retail offering then it won't work under the current global network of IP protection. As a result, these same companies with the biggest budgets to make progress in research won't devote those budgets to IP they don't own or can't license at a profitable fee.
nicoburns 5y ago
Qualcomm are sitting on a reflective display technology "mirasol" that: 1. Doesn't hit E-ink's patents 2. Is colour 3. Has fast lcd-like refresh rates The reviews of the few devices that were made were excellent. The main problem seemed to be the quality of other aspects of the devices that featured them. I find it incredibly frustrating that this hasn't made it into the mainstream.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  From wikipedia: "As of 2015, the IMOD Mirasol display laboratory in Longtan, Taiwan, formerly run by Qualcomm, is now apparently run by Apple." So even if something comes out of it - it would be probably just locked into apples garden.
  - moffkalast 5y ago
    Ah for fucks sake
  - Retric 5y ago
    That’s just Apple reusing the physical factory not the tech. Qualcomm completely abandoned the technology and couldn’t find anyone to license it.
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      Thanks, but that is allmost equally disappointing as it hints there were major problems with the technology.
    - jrockway 5y ago
      I guess they didn't look hard enough. I would have bought the tech for $1.
      - Retric 5y ago
        I realize you are mostly joking, but even having their lawyers go over the licensing contract would cost them far more than 1$. Actually transferring the knowledge of how to manufacture this stuff would probably require low 7 figures for them just to break even on the deal.
salamandersauce 5y ago
Yes there is. Sharp has their memory-in-pixel LCDs which are reflective and have less power consumption than traditional LCDs for some tasks. They've been used in stuff like the Pebble watches and the current Garmin Fenix line. I think a few of their denshi note devices have also used them. I don't think they make them in sizes big enough for stuff like monitors though.
- snovv_crash 5y ago
  The contrast on these screens is so low, I'd love to get little e-ink screens on the sports watches. Right now, especially in mixed-sunlight dappled forest kind of backgrounds, you really need to take a hard look at the screen to read anything, which isn't safe if you are trail running or mountain biking or something similar. Please watch makers, put a little eink-style screen on a watch! Even if it looks like 1st Generation Kindle screens, and is only black/white, it will still be an upgrade!
nebula8804 5y ago
Have you seen Dasung's Paperlike 253 monitor? [1]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aUizYZNbAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aUizYZNbAE
- empalms 5y ago
  Amazing, but does it stray into E Ink’s protective sphere? No doubt there are manufacturers around the world who are exploring quality general-purpose reflective displays for consumer applications, the tech has been around for some time. I could be mistaken but it seems more a question of commercial viability rather than technical capability
- rendaw 5y ago
  This looks like greyscale only, when I believe the squeeze in topic is high color displays (which are only mirasol, eink, and slurry AFAICT).
ineedasername 5y ago
To paraphrase Planck: technology advances with the funeral of each patent.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  Maybe not originaly, but as of today it very much seems like it. Related: maybe we will be done with covid, by the time the vaccines patents run out.
  - bsder 5y ago
    When 1/3 of the population refuses to get the vaccine, patents are the least of your problems.
  - franga2000 5y ago
    Didn't at least Moderna and maybe others publicly state they would not litigate any patents related to covid vaccines for the duration of the pandemic? Or am I completely misremembering this?
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      Lots of things have been said - and I vaguely remember something too, but also a dispute that US pushing for relaxing of the patents and the EU not, because Moderna is german based .. in any case it is not so easy, as it is not just about the vaccines, but for the production of the vaccines to set up, you need to licence or buy a lot of other stuff ... which is why my joke was obviously a oversimplification.
      - Toboe 5y ago
        >because Moderna is german based Moderna is US based https://enwikipedia.org/wiki/Moderna https://enwikipedia.org/wiki/Moderna We're you maybe thinking of BioNTech? (Makers of corminanty vaccine aka BioNTech-Pfizer vaccine against Covid) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioNTech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioNTech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-19_vaccine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-...
RL_Quine 5y ago
Sharp Memory LCDs are close. They are active, but so close to being zero power you could keep them running with a stern glare. They have absurd contrast, can be updated at tens of hertz or faster, and are high resolution. They’re never made in large sizes, but you will see them on things like the Play Date.
- rendaw 5y ago
  It looks like they only have 8 colors?
JetSetWilly 5y ago
There's the attractively named DES Slurry technology which I think has even been in shipping devices: https://goodereader.com/blog/e-paper/des-display-electronic-slurry-is-next-generation-e-paper https://goodereader.com/blog/e-paper/des-display-electronic-...
dehrmann 5y ago
I'm not convinced the issue is patents. It might just be that eInk is great for a few nice applications, so there just isn't that much demand.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  IMHO, it's an example of path dependence. If it had evolved during the CRT -> LCD era, we'd be looking at a very different present. As is, it's competing against 120hz, mass-produced LED/LCD panels that can scale in price from tablets to TV screens. It's hard for a "new" tech to have enough of an economic use case, so as to fund its own R&D, so at to become the best version of itself.
Eric_WVGG 5y ago
Zikon http://www.zikon.com http://www.zikon.com ClearInk https://clearinkdisplays.com https://clearinkdisplays.com
- rendaw 5y ago
  Zikon looks like it only makes low-color small screens. Clearink 2.0 looks amazing but apparently it was sold to a Chinese company and they haven't had any public announcements since 2019.
robinsoh 5y ago
> Every time an E Ink article is posted the patent defeatism is inevitable Here, we go again. I've only read that here (repeatedly!) on HN and blogs that then cited throwaway HN posts which never respond to my requests for at least some verifiable evidence. Have a look through my comment history. > that wouldn’t fall within the scope of E Ink’s defensible moat, or, if their parents are simply so broad what moat? please tell me, I keep asking. To me, it looks like all of the people making these claims have no clue about the display industry. It would be the equivalent of me coming on a search engine forum and then alleging Microsoft of using a patent moat to prevent progress in operating systems, is that true? I have no clue but it sure sounds good even though I have 0 evidence. I hope my point is clear.
- syshum 5y ago
  What kind of evidence are you looking for? History of full of example of patents slowing the deployment to technology, the latest clear example is 3d Printing which really only became affordable to the home user, and abel to be hackable by people doing novel things with it after the patents expired I would assume the same thing would happen with eink
  - robinsoh 5y ago
    > What kind of evidence are you looking for? Normally, the person making a claim or allegation supplies some evidence. You know like if I accused Microsoft of using patents for holding back operating system development, then you as presumably a software expert would rightly ask me for evidence. Is my point somehow unclear? Commenters on HN repeatedly make this claim and if you look at my comment history, each time I ask for evidence I get exactly your kind of reply or the link to that throwaway post (also on HN) and a blog article (that refers to that same throwaway post! infinite loop!) or best of all patents.google.com/search?q=eink . That suggests to me that these comments have no basis in evidence and the authors of the comments aren't even involved at any level of the display industry to understand what they're talking about. > I would assume the same thing would happen with eink Evidence?
    - 5y ago

christkv 5y ago

The one laptop per child had one but never went anywhere

Sunspark 5y ago
It had a transflective LCD.

throwthere 5y ago

When does the original parent run out? Will that be the end of this or are there other “process” aka bs patents coming?

empalms 5y ago
Good question. Skimming the uspto’s documentation, identifying the term does not appear to be a straightforward process [0]. Someone with more experience in the matter might be able to say. [0] https://www.uspto.gov/patents/laws/patent-term-calculator https://www.uspto.gov/patents/laws/patent-term-calculator
beckman466 5y ago
> When does the original parent run out? ten years. so just after the world collapses. it's so great that we are blocking the development of vital tech /s. i mean, imagine a world without today's level of production of laptop screens/OLED TVs/LCD TVs/phone/tablet screens. all those toxic chemicals. there's so many things we don't need a flashlight being shone in our faces for, and (as someone else in this thread already mentioned) our circadian rhythm being disrupted for. of course e-ink tech and the health of our eyes and sleep is just the tip of the iceberg. in the larger perspective capitalist firms are suffocating the earth with their single-use, non-modular, non-upgradeable, black box e-waste. they're not even 'tools' to me because the living and breathing Silicon Valley AI is using and abusing us (the workers) through these 'products'. i abhor the intellectual property system and monopolized vital technologies, it means capitalism makes the worst technological tools.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > capitalist firms are suffocating the earth Communist countries are the most polluted countries in the world. https://kafkadesk.org/2020/08/12/poland-stands-out-as-the-most-polluted-country-in-europe/ https://kafkadesk.org/2020/08/12/poland-stands-out-as-the-mo...
  - djrobstep 5y ago
    ??? Poland isn’t a communist country.
    - sumeno 5y ago
      Neither are Hungary, Czech Republic, or Slovakia. This guy is just really confused I guess
      - WalterBright 5y ago
        They all were not very long ago. The pollution didn't happen overnight. Much of their polluting industry was built by the communists.
  - mhh__ 5y ago
    https://www.perc.org/2019/05/17/socialism-is-bad-for-the-environment/ https://www.perc.org/2019/05/17/socialism-is-bad-for-the-env...
  - beckman466 5y ago
    > Communist countries are the most polluted countries in the world. what world economic system is committing mass ecocide and crossing our planetary boundaries by exhausting natural resources?

jMyles 5y ago

...or if they can simply be produced in a jurisdiction which does not recognize this patent?

slater 5y ago
...and then NOT sold in jurisdictions where the patent is recognized.
- jMyles 5y ago
  This does not seem like a difficult problem to solve, compared to the actual engineering, production, and scaling challenges.
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    The problem would require turning the entire global IP & supporting legal systems on their head. WTO, nation-specific laws, etc. Technology seems to move a lot faster than paradigm shifts in government.
    - jMyles 5y ago
      This is like saying that, if you want to use a particular prohibited plant or compound, you need to first end drug prohibition and the worldwide system of cartel profiteering. While it is most certainly a good idea to do that, you don't need to wait until the process is complete to include these items in your diet.
      - ineedasername 5y ago
        Then we're talking about different things, because I was thinking in terms of mass market adoption. A few instances of gray market or IP "theft" here and there isn't going to cause much of a stir. But if Samsung/Apple/other companies want to make a large scale retail offering then it won't work under the current global network of IP protection. As a result, these same companies with the biggest budgets to make progress in research won't devote those budgets to IP they don't own or can't license at a profitable fee.

nicoburns 5y ago

Qualcomm are sitting on a reflective display technology "mirasol" that: 1. Doesn't hit E-ink's patents 2. Is colour 3. Has fast lcd-like refresh rates The reviews of the few devices that were made were excellent. The main problem seemed to be the quality of other aspects of the devices that featured them. I find it incredibly frustrating that this hasn't made it into the mainstream.

hutzlibu 5y ago
From wikipedia: "As of 2015, the IMOD Mirasol display laboratory in Longtan, Taiwan, formerly run by Qualcomm, is now apparently run by Apple." So even if something comes out of it - it would be probably just locked into apples garden.
- moffkalast 5y ago
  Ah for fucks sake
- Retric 5y ago
  That’s just Apple reusing the physical factory not the tech. Qualcomm completely abandoned the technology and couldn’t find anyone to license it.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    Thanks, but that is allmost equally disappointing as it hints there were major problems with the technology.
  - jrockway 5y ago
    I guess they didn't look hard enough. I would have bought the tech for $1.
    - Retric 5y ago
      I realize you are mostly joking, but even having their lawyers go over the licensing contract would cost them far more than 1$. Actually transferring the knowledge of how to manufacture this stuff would probably require low 7 figures for them just to break even on the deal.

salamandersauce 5y ago

Yes there is. Sharp has their memory-in-pixel LCDs which are reflective and have less power consumption than traditional LCDs for some tasks. They've been used in stuff like the Pebble watches and the current Garmin Fenix line. I think a few of their denshi note devices have also used them. I don't think they make them in sizes big enough for stuff like monitors though.

snovv_crash 5y ago
The contrast on these screens is so low, I'd love to get little e-ink screens on the sports watches. Right now, especially in mixed-sunlight dappled forest kind of backgrounds, you really need to take a hard look at the screen to read anything, which isn't safe if you are trail running or mountain biking or something similar. Please watch makers, put a little eink-style screen on a watch! Even if it looks like 1st Generation Kindle screens, and is only black/white, it will still be an upgrade!

nebula8804 5y ago

Have you seen Dasung's Paperlike 253 monitor? [1]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aUizYZNbAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aUizYZNbAE

empalms 5y ago
Amazing, but does it stray into E Ink’s protective sphere? No doubt there are manufacturers around the world who are exploring quality general-purpose reflective displays for consumer applications, the tech has been around for some time. I could be mistaken but it seems more a question of commercial viability rather than technical capability
rendaw 5y ago
This looks like greyscale only, when I believe the squeeze in topic is high color displays (which are only mirasol, eink, and slurry AFAICT).

ineedasername 5y ago

To paraphrase Planck: technology advances with the funeral of each patent.

hutzlibu 5y ago
Maybe not originaly, but as of today it very much seems like it. Related: maybe we will be done with covid, by the time the vaccines patents run out.
- bsder 5y ago
  When 1/3 of the population refuses to get the vaccine, patents are the least of your problems.
- franga2000 5y ago
  Didn't at least Moderna and maybe others publicly state they would not litigate any patents related to covid vaccines for the duration of the pandemic? Or am I completely misremembering this?
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    Lots of things have been said - and I vaguely remember something too, but also a dispute that US pushing for relaxing of the patents and the EU not, because Moderna is german based .. in any case it is not so easy, as it is not just about the vaccines, but for the production of the vaccines to set up, you need to licence or buy a lot of other stuff ... which is why my joke was obviously a oversimplification.
    - Toboe 5y ago
      >because Moderna is german based Moderna is US based https://enwikipedia.org/wiki/Moderna https://enwikipedia.org/wiki/Moderna We're you maybe thinking of BioNTech? (Makers of corminanty vaccine aka BioNTech-Pfizer vaccine against Covid) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioNTech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioNTech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-19_vaccine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-...

RL_Quine 5y ago

Sharp Memory LCDs are close. They are active, but so close to being zero power you could keep them running with a stern glare. They have absurd contrast, can be updated at tens of hertz or faster, and are high resolution. They’re never made in large sizes, but you will see them on things like the Play Date.

rendaw 5y ago
It looks like they only have 8 colors?

JetSetWilly 5y ago

There's the attractively named DES Slurry technology which I think has even been in shipping devices: https://goodereader.com/blog/e-paper/des-display-electronic-slurry-is-next-generation-e-paper https://goodereader.com/blog/e-paper/des-display-electronic-...

dehrmann 5y ago

I'm not convinced the issue is patents. It might just be that eInk is great for a few nice applications, so there just isn't that much demand.

ethbr0 5y ago
IMHO, it's an example of path dependence. If it had evolved during the CRT -> LCD era, we'd be looking at a very different present. As is, it's competing against 120hz, mass-produced LED/LCD panels that can scale in price from tablets to TV screens. It's hard for a "new" tech to have enough of an economic use case, so as to fund its own R&D, so at to become the best version of itself.

Eric_WVGG 5y ago

Zikon http://www.zikon.com http://www.zikon.com ClearInk https://clearinkdisplays.com https://clearinkdisplays.com

rendaw 5y ago
Zikon looks like it only makes low-color small screens. Clearink 2.0 looks amazing but apparently it was sold to a Chinese company and they haven't had any public announcements since 2019.

robinsoh 5y ago

> Every time an E Ink article is posted the patent defeatism is inevitable Here, we go again. I've only read that here (repeatedly!) on HN and blogs that then cited throwaway HN posts which never respond to my requests for at least some verifiable evidence. Have a look through my comment history. > that wouldn’t fall within the scope of E Ink’s defensible moat, or, if their parents are simply so broad what moat? please tell me, I keep asking. To me, it looks like all of the people making these claims have no clue about the display industry. It would be the equivalent of me coming on a search engine forum and then alleging Microsoft of using a patent moat to prevent progress in operating systems, is that true? I have no clue but it sure sounds good even though I have 0 evidence. I hope my point is clear.

syshum 5y ago
What kind of evidence are you looking for? History of full of example of patents slowing the deployment to technology, the latest clear example is 3d Printing which really only became affordable to the home user, and abel to be hackable by people doing novel things with it after the patents expired I would assume the same thing would happen with eink
- robinsoh 5y ago
  > What kind of evidence are you looking for? Normally, the person making a claim or allegation supplies some evidence. You know like if I accused Microsoft of using patents for holding back operating system development, then you as presumably a software expert would rightly ask me for evidence. Is my point somehow unclear? Commenters on HN repeatedly make this claim and if you look at my comment history, each time I ask for evidence I get exactly your kind of reply or the link to that throwaway post (also on HN) and a blog article (that refers to that same throwaway post! infinite loop!) or best of all patents.google.com/search?q=eink . That suggests to me that these comments have no basis in evidence and the authors of the comments aren't even involved at any level of the display industry to understand what they're talking about. > I would assume the same thing would happen with eink Evidence?
  - 5y ago