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This is called moving goalposts. The vaccines application states it will prevent transmissions, not lesson the symptoms. If it is simply "lessoning" the symptom

This is called moving goalposts. The vaccines application states it will prevent transmissions, not lesson the symptoms. If it is simply "lessoning" the symptoms which has not been my experience with Omicron, but not preventing transmission then the authorizations should be pulled until they can be resubmitted.

VoidWhisperer 5y ago
To some reasonable level, the vaccines do prevent transmission. However, no vaccine is perfect - just look at the flu vaccine - even if the strains picked for the vaccine for the year are right, some people will still get the flu. The vaccine helps to prepare your immune system to deal with the virus - in some cases that means it can fight it off entirely, or in other cases it will be able to fight it off quicker and your symptoms will be milder because your body is prepared.
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  The FDA didn't approve the vaccines under emergency use to lessen the symptoms, only to prevent transmission.
  - rsfern 5y ago
    That’s not correct, the clinical trials explicitly measured symptomatic disease and not transmission e.g. https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04470427 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04470427
    - encryptluks2 5y ago
      The applications specifically said that they are for prevention.
      - acdha 5y ago
        Prevention of the disease, not just spread.
        encryptluks2 5y ago
        People that are vaxxed are still getting the disease.
        acdha 5y ago
        At a lower rate and with far less severity, which is exactly what we expected based on the initial data. Omicron's arrival means that more people are getting sick but when they do, it's still considerably less severe — which is good because Omicron is sending more people to the hospital even though it's ~40-50% less likely to do so compared to Delta. I realize that you don't want to admit having been so wrong about this for so long but the evidence is very clear that the vaccines are safe and effective: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#covidnet-hospitalizations-vaccination https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#covidnet-hospitali...
        encryptluks2 5y ago
        Again, there you go quoting CDC ignoring the authorization which is for prevention and moving the goal posts quicker than QAnon. Some vaxxed people are in a constant state of Stockholm Syndrome. The evidence you speak of is unattainable at this point and VAERS is one of the only outlets which is significantly backlogged, and according to pro-vaxxers can't be trusted anymore because it doesn't fit their narrative.
        rsfern 5y ago
        Why are you continuing to misrepresent the EUA documents? They don’t support your assertion. (If you point to where in the authorization docs they specify the goal is to prevent SARS-CoV-2 infection, I’ll change my mind. I linked the moderna application in another sub thread, and the pfizer one is easy to find) Also VAERS is not the only data source we have for vaccine safety, it’s our hypothesis generation system. We have good data from the vaccine safety datalink system that let us actually quantify the risk of different side effects. https://doi.org/10.1001/jama.2021.15072 https://doi.org/10.1001/jama.2021.15072
stinos 5y ago
The vaccines application states it will prevent transmissions, not lesson the symptoms Did you get this from an official source? I mean, no-one should have stated this because it is simply not true, nor has been for most common vaccins out there. At least in my country none of the official sources nor epidemiologists nor virologists ever said this. They'd only go as close as stating 'can prevent transmission in xx% of cases' or something like that.
chrononaut 5y ago
> If it is simply "lessoning" the symptoms which has not been my experience with Omicron, but not preventing transmission then the authorizations should be pulled until they can be resubmitted. Are organizations still making policy decisions based on the specifics of the original application implications? Or from observation that it only notably reduces hospitalizations / symptom severity? If the former is the case, that would warrant clarity, but I also have no idea what a resubmission process looks like. Is that a one week turnaround? Or is it six months with no vaccines being able to be distributed?
kspacewalk2 5y ago
The clinical trials for Pfizer and Moderna were testing for severe outcomes, not transmission. The vaccines got emergency use authorization based on that. Some non-clinical studies suggested a drop in transmission (e.g. CDC study in spring 2021 which examined healthcare workers who got the jab early and were tested weekly), but it's clear now they were just picking up a transient effect, months long but wearing off thereafter. So the mRNA vaccines are doing exactly what they were trialled to do 1.5 years ago. What your local politicians and public health authorities misunderstood from that is their problem.
- ls15 5y ago
  > What your local politicians and public health authorities misunderstood from that is their problem. AND also my problem.

VoidWhisperer 5y ago

To some reasonable level, the vaccines do prevent transmission. However, no vaccine is perfect - just look at the flu vaccine - even if the strains picked for the vaccine for the year are right, some people will still get the flu. The vaccine helps to prepare your immune system to deal with the virus - in some cases that means it can fight it off entirely, or in other cases it will be able to fight it off quicker and your symptoms will be milder because your body is prepared.

encryptluks2 5y ago
The FDA didn't approve the vaccines under emergency use to lessen the symptoms, only to prevent transmission.
- rsfern 5y ago
  That’s not correct, the clinical trials explicitly measured symptomatic disease and not transmission e.g. https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04470427 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04470427
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    The applications specifically said that they are for prevention.
    - acdha 5y ago
      Prevention of the disease, not just spread.
      - encryptluks2 5y ago
        People that are vaxxed are still getting the disease.
        acdha 5y ago
        At a lower rate and with far less severity, which is exactly what we expected based on the initial data. Omicron's arrival means that more people are getting sick but when they do, it's still considerably less severe — which is good because Omicron is sending more people to the hospital even though it's ~40-50% less likely to do so compared to Delta. I realize that you don't want to admit having been so wrong about this for so long but the evidence is very clear that the vaccines are safe and effective: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#covidnet-hospitalizations-vaccination https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#covidnet-hospitali...
        encryptluks2 5y ago
        Again, there you go quoting CDC ignoring the authorization which is for prevention and moving the goal posts quicker than QAnon. Some vaxxed people are in a constant state of Stockholm Syndrome. The evidence you speak of is unattainable at this point and VAERS is one of the only outlets which is significantly backlogged, and according to pro-vaxxers can't be trusted anymore because it doesn't fit their narrative.
        rsfern 5y ago
        Why are you continuing to misrepresent the EUA documents? They don’t support your assertion. (If you point to where in the authorization docs they specify the goal is to prevent SARS-CoV-2 infection, I’ll change my mind. I linked the moderna application in another sub thread, and the pfizer one is easy to find) Also VAERS is not the only data source we have for vaccine safety, it’s our hypothesis generation system. We have good data from the vaccine safety datalink system that let us actually quantify the risk of different side effects. https://doi.org/10.1001/jama.2021.15072 https://doi.org/10.1001/jama.2021.15072

stinos 5y ago

The vaccines application states it will prevent transmissions, not lesson the symptoms Did you get this from an official source? I mean, no-one should have stated this because it is simply not true, nor has been for most common vaccins out there. At least in my country none of the official sources nor epidemiologists nor virologists ever said this. They'd only go as close as stating 'can prevent transmission in xx% of cases' or something like that.

chrononaut 5y ago

> If it is simply "lessoning" the symptoms which has not been my experience with Omicron, but not preventing transmission then the authorizations should be pulled until they can be resubmitted. Are organizations still making policy decisions based on the specifics of the original application implications? Or from observation that it only notably reduces hospitalizations / symptom severity? If the former is the case, that would warrant clarity, but I also have no idea what a resubmission process looks like. Is that a one week turnaround? Or is it six months with no vaccines being able to be distributed?

kspacewalk2 5y ago

The clinical trials for Pfizer and Moderna were testing for severe outcomes, not transmission. The vaccines got emergency use authorization based on that. Some non-clinical studies suggested a drop in transmission (e.g. CDC study in spring 2021 which examined healthcare workers who got the jab early and were tested weekly), but it's clear now they were just picking up a transient effect, months long but wearing off thereafter. So the mRNA vaccines are doing exactly what they were trialled to do 1.5 years ago. What your local politicians and public health authorities misunderstood from that is their problem.

ls15 5y ago
> What your local politicians and public health authorities misunderstood from that is their problem. AND also my problem.