5 ms·

This is refreshing to hear. Hope other countries will follow and we’ll start returning to normal.

by iakov 5y ago

smitty1e 5y ago
We may get close to normal, but a horrifying precedent has been set. I hope for thorough consideration of the totality of the evidence by voters and some careful thought regarding the last two years.
- andybak 5y ago
  Most of us have been giving it careful thought all along. Something about your phrasing suggests to me that your views are outside the mainstream? (In which direction I don't know because you seem cagey about actually stating your view)
  - smitty1e 5y ago
    The point is to encourage thought in the general population. The moderation here is less than encouraging.
    - andybak 5y ago
      OK. Time to bite. 1. What's the horrifying precedent? 2. Assuming we can another pandemic one day which is more severe, how would you handle restrictions to protect public health - assuming you would at all? (I think a lot of the debate around Covid stems from the unfortunate fact that it's too severe to ignore but not severe enough to get everyone on the same page. I can respect "we didn't need to this time" but I'm curious about people who argue "we should never do this")
      - smitty1e 5y ago
        The horrifying precedent is small numbers of people who do not always stand for election making highly consequential decisions for large numbers of people. Stipulate that the current crop of names all have noble intent. Not taking swipes at anyone in view. You've no guarantees of such going forward. The current situation is Checkov's Gun[1]. At some point, if we don't enjoy a collective think on where this is going, there will be dismay. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun
        biorach 5y ago
        >The horrifying precedent is small numbers of people who do not always stand for election making highly consequential decisions for large numbers of people. Nothing new there, beaurocrats and public health officials have long had the power to make highly consequential decisions for large numbers of people. Yes we could do with some debate about the power they exercise and about how to handle the next pandemic, and there will be a next pandemic. However your dramatic tone is unwarranted and unhelpful.
        smitty1e 5y ago
        > Nothing new there, beaurocrats and public health officials have long had the power to make highly consequential decisions for large numbers of people. I'll yield on the kind, but the degree with the Covid is off the charts for peacetime action. Was this wise? Were the across-the-board outcomes worth it? Those who made the decisions may be biased in their reflections on the matter.
        biorach 5y ago
        > but the degree with the Covid is off the charts for peacetime action. Actually, no. This is exactly the level of heavy handed, indiscriminate beaurocratic/government control that poorer people have always had to deal with - see for example how large scale city planning has tended to distribute its most disruptive consequences among the poorest neighbourhoods, or how public health systems have judged most harshly and intruded most forcefully into the lives of the poorest. So again, nothing new. The only new thing is that middle class and wealthy people - such as you and I - suddenly experience this and react in shock. > Were the across-the-board outcomes worth it? Lives saved, lives disrupted, jobs lost... I don't know.It's a complex calculus, requiring a dispassionate and objective inquiry, which you clearly are not in a position to make > Those who made the decisions may be biased in their reflections on the matter Whatever
        smitty1e 5y ago
        > Actually, no. This is exactly the level of heavy handed, indiscriminate beaurocratic/government control that poorer people have always had to deal with - see for example how large scale city planning has tended to distribute its most disruptive consequences among the poorest neighbourhoods, or how public health systems have judged most harshly and intruded most forcefully into the lives of the poorest. Once again: kind, not degree. Short of wartime mobilization, there just aren't examples of bureaucrats ordering wrenching economic changes on this scale.
kilroy123 5y ago
Here in London people seem to have largely stop caring. Many have already been vaxed and got COVID. (I have) Lot's of people are ignoring the mask mandates and going with out a mask, even on the public transportation.
- te_chris 5y ago
  This. The PT one annoys the F out of me... but otherwise I'm over it. On PT though, I don't understand how people can't just put a mask on. SE Asia learned from SARS 1 and kept it up out of common sense, but nope, that's too much to ask here. I'm triple vaxxed and had covid in December. I'm going to nightclubs, pubs, restaurants etc. because why not? Who knows what the next variants etc will bring, but really does feel like Omicron is a gift of some sort.
  - thisisnotatest1 5y ago
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1645842452 https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1645842452 This might be helpful for your situation
  - zdragnar 5y ago
    With a super contageous aerosol spreading virus, pretty much they only way masks on PT will make any difference at all is if everyone wears well fitted N95 or better masks. The cute cloth masks and disposable paper ones simply aren't going to make a difference in an enclosed space like a bus or subway. It is the worst kind of security theater, in that it makes people feel safer when they are not, and so more willing to take risks than they would have been otherwise. Asking people to wear cloth masks on PT during covid is like asking them to wear a bandana while riding a bicycle.
iso1210 5y ago
UK is pretty much doing it, Especially England. The Omicron peak is over, hospitalisations never reached the numbers feared, indeed there were more people who tested positive that were hospitalised for other reasons -- something miles away from reality in earlier waves. In this wave, case:hospitalisation ratio about 1:80. Last year it was about 1:13
solididiot 5y ago
I think this is the new normal. Either open/close as soon as a more dangerous variant comes along (can happen with most of the Earth population unvaccinated). Or just let it be and get used to health system being on its knees on peak seasons and more vulnerable/unvaccinated dying of.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Also accept the reality that hospitals being at capacity is the normal and not a anomaly. Just part of our hyper-optimized JIT economy. Near 100% utilization rate has been reality at flu-seasons for long time. And economically it is just not realistic in general to keep excess capacity.
  - jseban 5y ago
    Yeah according to news headlines health care have been overwhelmed for as long as I can remember. Population increases as well. Obviously the solution is to increase capacity, not to ban dancing, lol
    - catblathrow 5y ago
      It's much easier to introduce restrictions than train medical staff in a week. Also capacity has been increasing year on year for the past 100 years in the EU, USA and the UK . Faster than population actually. Also there is cyclical and situational capacity management. For e.g.: flu waves, new year and now covid waves. I only know about those regions
exegete 5y ago
After this Ireland still has more restrictions than most US states currently since it requires masks in public places.

This is refreshing to hear. Hope other countries will follow and we’ll start returning to normal.

by iakov 5y ago

This is refreshing to hear. Hope other countries will follow and we’ll start returning to normal.

We may get close to normal, but a horrifying precedent has been set. I hope for thorough consideration of the totality of the evidence by voters and some careful thought regarding the last two years.

andybak 5y ago
Most of us have been giving it careful thought all along. Something about your phrasing suggests to me that your views are outside the mainstream? (In which direction I don't know because you seem cagey about actually stating your view)
- smitty1e 5y ago
  The point is to encourage thought in the general population. The moderation here is less than encouraging.
  - andybak 5y ago
    OK. Time to bite. 1. What's the horrifying precedent? 2. Assuming we can another pandemic one day which is more severe, how would you handle restrictions to protect public health - assuming you would at all? (I think a lot of the debate around Covid stems from the unfortunate fact that it's too severe to ignore but not severe enough to get everyone on the same page. I can respect "we didn't need to this time" but I'm curious about people who argue "we should never do this")
    - smitty1e 5y ago
      The horrifying precedent is small numbers of people who do not always stand for election making highly consequential decisions for large numbers of people. Stipulate that the current crop of names all have noble intent. Not taking swipes at anyone in view. You've no guarantees of such going forward. The current situation is Checkov's Gun[1]. At some point, if we don't enjoy a collective think on where this is going, there will be dismay. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun
      - biorach 5y ago
        >The horrifying precedent is small numbers of people who do not always stand for election making highly consequential decisions for large numbers of people. Nothing new there, beaurocrats and public health officials have long had the power to make highly consequential decisions for large numbers of people. Yes we could do with some debate about the power they exercise and about how to handle the next pandemic, and there will be a next pandemic. However your dramatic tone is unwarranted and unhelpful.
        smitty1e 5y ago
        > Nothing new there, beaurocrats and public health officials have long had the power to make highly consequential decisions for large numbers of people. I'll yield on the kind, but the degree with the Covid is off the charts for peacetime action. Was this wise? Were the across-the-board outcomes worth it? Those who made the decisions may be biased in their reflections on the matter.
        biorach 5y ago
        > but the degree with the Covid is off the charts for peacetime action. Actually, no. This is exactly the level of heavy handed, indiscriminate beaurocratic/government control that poorer people have always had to deal with - see for example how large scale city planning has tended to distribute its most disruptive consequences among the poorest neighbourhoods, or how public health systems have judged most harshly and intruded most forcefully into the lives of the poorest. So again, nothing new. The only new thing is that middle class and wealthy people - such as you and I - suddenly experience this and react in shock. > Were the across-the-board outcomes worth it? Lives saved, lives disrupted, jobs lost... I don't know.It's a complex calculus, requiring a dispassionate and objective inquiry, which you clearly are not in a position to make > Those who made the decisions may be biased in their reflections on the matter Whatever
        smitty1e 5y ago
        > Actually, no. This is exactly the level of heavy handed, indiscriminate beaurocratic/government control that poorer people have always had to deal with - see for example how large scale city planning has tended to distribute its most disruptive consequences among the poorest neighbourhoods, or how public health systems have judged most harshly and intruded most forcefully into the lives of the poorest. Once again: kind, not degree. Short of wartime mobilization, there just aren't examples of bureaucrats ordering wrenching economic changes on this scale.

kilroy123 5y ago

Here in London people seem to have largely stop caring. Many have already been vaxed and got COVID. (I have) Lot's of people are ignoring the mask mandates and going with out a mask, even on the public transportation.

te_chris 5y ago
This. The PT one annoys the F out of me... but otherwise I'm over it. On PT though, I don't understand how people can't just put a mask on. SE Asia learned from SARS 1 and kept it up out of common sense, but nope, that's too much to ask here. I'm triple vaxxed and had covid in December. I'm going to nightclubs, pubs, restaurants etc. because why not? Who knows what the next variants etc will bring, but really does feel like Omicron is a gift of some sort.
- thisisnotatest1 5y ago
  https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1645842452 https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1645842452 This might be helpful for your situation
- zdragnar 5y ago
  With a super contageous aerosol spreading virus, pretty much they only way masks on PT will make any difference at all is if everyone wears well fitted N95 or better masks. The cute cloth masks and disposable paper ones simply aren't going to make a difference in an enclosed space like a bus or subway. It is the worst kind of security theater, in that it makes people feel safer when they are not, and so more willing to take risks than they would have been otherwise. Asking people to wear cloth masks on PT during covid is like asking them to wear a bandana while riding a bicycle.

iso1210 5y ago

UK is pretty much doing it, Especially England. The Omicron peak is over, hospitalisations never reached the numbers feared, indeed there were more people who tested positive that were hospitalised for other reasons -- something miles away from reality in earlier waves. In this wave, case:hospitalisation ratio about 1:80. Last year it was about 1:13

solididiot 5y ago

I think this is the new normal. Either open/close as soon as a more dangerous variant comes along (can happen with most of the Earth population unvaccinated). Or just let it be and get used to health system being on its knees on peak seasons and more vulnerable/unvaccinated dying of.

Ekaros 5y ago
Also accept the reality that hospitals being at capacity is the normal and not a anomaly. Just part of our hyper-optimized JIT economy. Near 100% utilization rate has been reality at flu-seasons for long time. And economically it is just not realistic in general to keep excess capacity.
- jseban 5y ago
  Yeah according to news headlines health care have been overwhelmed for as long as I can remember. Population increases as well. Obviously the solution is to increase capacity, not to ban dancing, lol
  - catblathrow 5y ago
    It's much easier to introduce restrictions than train medical staff in a week. Also capacity has been increasing year on year for the past 100 years in the EU, USA and the UK . Faster than population actually. Also there is cyclical and situational capacity management. For e.g.: flu waves, new year and now covid waves. I only know about those regions

exegete 5y ago

After this Ireland still has more restrictions than most US states currently since it requires masks in public places.