5 ms·

> C is probably the patriarch of the longest list of languages. Notable among these are C++, the D programming language, and most recently, Go. There are endles

by bhaak 5y ago

> C is probably the patriarch of the longest list of languages. Notable among these are C++, the D programming language, and most recently, Go. There are endless discussion threads on how to fix C, going back to the 80’s. Why is Java missing in that list?

thingsgoup 5y ago
I suspect it’s because manual memory management in Java isn’t built into the language. Is it even possible? I’m not a Java programmer and I don’t know. My understanding has been that the runtime doesn’t expose the memory model to you.
- kaba0 5y ago
  In a way it does. Java just likes to push most features to methods on special objects, instead of exposing them as native functionality (to avoid backwards incompatible changes). So it would look something like MemorySegment.allocateNatice(100, someScope). This new API has a runtime ownership model, so by default only a single thread can access this memory address, and it can be freed at will.
laumars 5y ago
Maybe because Java is more of a direct descendant of C++ than pure C (though obviously C++ is an iteration of C). Or maybe they omitted it before there are literally hundreds of languages that were inspired from C and listing them all would have been boring for the reader.
- futharkshill 5y ago
  Why would you think Java is a descendant of C++? There may be overlap in some syntax, mainly from C. C++ is not, and was not, the only OOP language, and I have heard no such that that is should be descendant of C++.
  - pletnes 5y ago
    I was once at a talk given by James Gosling. He said that Java-the-language was «a trick to get C++ programmers to use the Java Virtual Machine». He deliberately made Java very similar to C++ but removed what he saw as the hard and risky parts (memory management, operator overloading, etc) that are typically not required for standard applications. Well, that was my interpretation of what he said, errors are my own etc. But this would make Java a direct descendant of C++, in my mind.
    - bhaak 5y ago
      I have never heard that quote from James before. Are you sure about the JVM? The JVM was quite controversial back then, Java first had to prove that you could make a performant virtual machine. But Guy Steele claimed "We were not out to win over the Lisp programmers; we were after the C++ programmers. We managed to drag a lot of them about halfway to Lisp."
      - pletnes 5y ago
        Well, it’s many years ago and memory corruption is real. I got the impression that their goal was to get adoption of (what at some point became) the JVM, or the «compile once run anywhere» vision. They envisioned many languages to coexist on the JVM, which kinda happened but maybe not as much as they thought. So they designed a language to get started, Java, and made it familiar-looking to get people om board.
  - mftb 5y ago
    Because at the time it was pretty clear. 'At that stage, C and C++ "absolutely owned the universe"' - https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-java-founder-james-gosling-reveals-more-on-java-and-android/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-java-fou... They took a lot of inspiration from C/C++'s syntax and seemed to be pretty concerned with improving memory management, security and developer velocity.
    - futharkshill 5y ago
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Java has a C++ syntax to sell it to the C++ devs at the time, however its major influence was Objective-C. https://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/java-objc.html https://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/java-objc.html
  - protomyth 5y ago
    Yet it didn't have any of the dynamic nature of Objective-C which made the attempt to replace Objective-C in OS X with Java a failure.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      What? There was no attempt to replace Objective-C with Java on OS X. Apple was unsure if the strange look from Objective-C would ever appeal to the Object Pascal/C++ communities of Apple developers, thus they used Java wave as plan B, in case Objective-C was rejected by them. As this did not happen, there was no reason to keep plan B around.
      - protomyth 5y ago
        There was no attempt to replace Objective-C with Java on OS X. I would say there was a heck of an attempt with the Java-Cocoa bridge that didn't do well because Java didn't have a lot of the dynamic nature of Objective-C. They certainly to my eyes as a developer tried to push Java.
        pjmlp 5y ago
        As you wish, Java-Cocoa bridge could have never replaced Objective-C, when writing Objective-C was still part of the game to actually use it. Do you actually believe that Jobs liked Java, when Apple was created on top of Object Pascal and C++, and then he was responsible for bringing Brad Cox to NeXT?
        protomyth 5y ago
        Yeah, given the crap they were sending in the monthly discs to developers at the time. They certainly seemed like we should of took Java seriously. I was rather annoyed given I had learned Objective-C on NeXTSTEP. I'm glad that someone realized it was not substitute, but they did push it. Jobs hated it later, but he changed his mind on things fairly often given just looking at iPod features.

by bhaak 5y ago

thingsgoup 5y ago

I suspect it’s because manual memory management in Java isn’t built into the language. Is it even possible? I’m not a Java programmer and I don’t know. My understanding has been that the runtime doesn’t expose the memory model to you.

kaba0 5y ago
In a way it does. Java just likes to push most features to methods on special objects, instead of exposing them as native functionality (to avoid backwards incompatible changes). So it would look something like MemorySegment.allocateNatice(100, someScope). This new API has a runtime ownership model, so by default only a single thread can access this memory address, and it can be freed at will.

laumars 5y ago

Maybe because Java is more of a direct descendant of C++ than pure C (though obviously C++ is an iteration of C). Or maybe they omitted it before there are literally hundreds of languages that were inspired from C and listing them all would have been boring for the reader.

futharkshill 5y ago
Why would you think Java is a descendant of C++? There may be overlap in some syntax, mainly from C. C++ is not, and was not, the only OOP language, and I have heard no such that that is should be descendant of C++.
- pletnes 5y ago
  I was once at a talk given by James Gosling. He said that Java-the-language was «a trick to get C++ programmers to use the Java Virtual Machine». He deliberately made Java very similar to C++ but removed what he saw as the hard and risky parts (memory management, operator overloading, etc) that are typically not required for standard applications. Well, that was my interpretation of what he said, errors are my own etc. But this would make Java a direct descendant of C++, in my mind.
  - bhaak 5y ago
    I have never heard that quote from James before. Are you sure about the JVM? The JVM was quite controversial back then, Java first had to prove that you could make a performant virtual machine. But Guy Steele claimed "We were not out to win over the Lisp programmers; we were after the C++ programmers. We managed to drag a lot of them about halfway to Lisp."
    - pletnes 5y ago
      Well, it’s many years ago and memory corruption is real. I got the impression that their goal was to get adoption of (what at some point became) the JVM, or the «compile once run anywhere» vision. They envisioned many languages to coexist on the JVM, which kinda happened but maybe not as much as they thought. So they designed a language to get started, Java, and made it familiar-looking to get people om board.
- mftb 5y ago
  Because at the time it was pretty clear. 'At that stage, C and C++ "absolutely owned the universe"' - https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-java-founder-james-gosling-reveals-more-on-java-and-android/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-java-fou... They took a lot of inspiration from C/C++'s syntax and seemed to be pretty concerned with improving memory management, security and developer velocity.
  - futharkshill 5y ago
pjmlp 5y ago
Java has a C++ syntax to sell it to the C++ devs at the time, however its major influence was Objective-C. https://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/java-objc.html https://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/java-objc.html
- protomyth 5y ago
  Yet it didn't have any of the dynamic nature of Objective-C which made the attempt to replace Objective-C in OS X with Java a failure.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    What? There was no attempt to replace Objective-C with Java on OS X. Apple was unsure if the strange look from Objective-C would ever appeal to the Object Pascal/C++ communities of Apple developers, thus they used Java wave as plan B, in case Objective-C was rejected by them. As this did not happen, there was no reason to keep plan B around.
    - protomyth 5y ago
      There was no attempt to replace Objective-C with Java on OS X. I would say there was a heck of an attempt with the Java-Cocoa bridge that didn't do well because Java didn't have a lot of the dynamic nature of Objective-C. They certainly to my eyes as a developer tried to push Java.
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        As you wish, Java-Cocoa bridge could have never replaced Objective-C, when writing Objective-C was still part of the game to actually use it. Do you actually believe that Jobs liked Java, when Apple was created on top of Object Pascal and C++, and then he was responsible for bringing Brad Cox to NeXT?
        protomyth 5y ago
        Yeah, given the crap they were sending in the monthly discs to developers at the time. They certainly seemed like we should of took Java seriously. I was rather annoyed given I had learned Objective-C on NeXTSTEP. I'm glad that someone realized it was not substitute, but they did push it. Jobs hated it later, but he changed his mind on things fairly often given just looking at iPod features.