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New genetic study confirms that alcohol is a direct cause of cancer
- alanfranz 5y agoHow much drinking is drinking in such study? I could not understand that from the abstract.
- lil_dispaches 5y agoCancer seems to increase with age, so could we not conclude the opposite, that alcohol somehow aids survival? Studies should not come with conclusions. Just the data, and unbiased analysis of the data if you must. No one statistical study can "confirm" anything. This is why science is so broke.
- tonfreed 5y agoI'm going to die anyway, I may as well enjoy myself.
- nikolay 5y agoIt is all about the dose! 50 ml of alcohol a day have benefits and I know a lot of 90+ people who drink moderately on a daily basis. According to Ray Peat, it dissolve lipofuscin. There are studies [0]. The issue is not alcohol, but the lack of self-control! [0]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0891584989901421 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/089158...
- throw_away 5y agoin rats (in vitro) [1989]
- nikolay 5y agoSo? If 2+2=4 in 1989, then it's no longer true in 2022?
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- culebron21 5y agoWhat a sensational title about a 14% correlation on a proxy variable! I wish I could sometimes turn into a journalist and sell my model with 30% MAPE (mean absolute percentage error) to management like this. This is why popular medical press should not be read at all, because it announces another cure of cancer or of aids every day, yet those are just preliminary in-silico researches (simulation of chemical reaction), 90% of which fail at in-vitro stage, another 9% at in-vivo.
- mmmeff 5y agoWould anyone really self report excessive alcohol consumption accurately in China? Isn’t there an incentive to lie to bolster your social credit? Or are there guarantees in China against medical surveillance?
- gtsop 5y agoI think your question has some very specific variables that aren't really helpful. How about making it more generic: Would people really self report excessive alcohol comsumption accurately?
- b112 5y agoTalking privately to researchers, in China, may mean the government knows, which may effect social credit. This would not happen elsewhere, and thus, is a valid question. Would this effect, uniquely, reported numbers in China? Thus the parent post made a sensible logical point.
- gtsop 5y agoNot really dissagreeing here. But still, the specifics of these variables might derail from the actual question at hand. Do people actually self report accurately regardless of state? That why i just mentioned that i think these specifics aren't quite useful
- b112 5y agoI think, if it is a reputable research company or university or some such, doing a study, which promises privacy with an NDA, yes. They would self report more accurately.
- Schnitz 5y agoYour assumption that excessive alcohol consumption is stigmatized in China is wrong. Drinking is very common and not done in hiding.
- mnd999 5y ago
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- jonshariat 5y agoThis is already well documented on cancer.gov for those interested: https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/alcohol/alcohol-fact-sheet https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/a... See the reference section for supporting research.
- mateo1 5y agoThe only thing I learned from this study is that the 20% of the Chinese can't drink.
- tejtm 5y agoand that is selection. Chinese were first to rely on fermented grains to be food at least 6k years ago. good strategy -- there are time when every calorie you can get counts. bad strategy -- its addictive and toxic. solution? favor those who could consume it to avoid starvation, but would not touch it otherwise because it is so unpleasant (instant hangover). Meanwhile brewing alcohol only started maybe 3k years ago in north western Europe so they are still figuring it out. And poor north America did not stand a chance, bulk fruit/grain preservation via fermentation had never became widespread then it showed up fully refined. Metabolizing alcohol yields aldehydes, which can and do cause double strand breaks in DNA. We normally have processes to repair the damage but mistakes will be made and build up over time. There is no minimum safe healthy amount to consume. Drinking alcohol just beats starving, nothing more.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- bigodbiel 5y agoWait, so are you saying all the Chinese alcoholics drove themselves to extinction?
- yonaguska 5y agoYou could probably reproduce before cancer gets you, so unlikely.
- _0w8t 5y agoThe body produces alcohol when oxydising carbohydrates. Granted, the amount is small (few grams), but it indicates that there is in fact a dose to consume that stays below the saturation limit for the body to safely deal with alcohol.
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- 1penny42cents 5y ago> it has been difficult to establish whether alcohol directly causes cancer, or if it is linked to possible confounding factors (such as smoking and diet) that could generate biased results. > It was also unclear whether alcohol is linked to other types of cancer, including lung and stomach cancers. If smoking was a confounding variable, shouldn't we see an increased risk of smoking-related cancers?
- jb1991 5y agoI’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not, but we certainly do see an increase in lung cancer among people who smoke regularly.
- stjohnswarts 5y agoAren't lung cancer patient chances of having it on the order of 1000x to 1 as far a smoker vs who has never smoked?
- asimpletune 5y agoHe was saying that there should be an increased % of smoking-related cancers among people who drink, due to smoking smoking being a confounding factor when trying to determine causality with alcohol-related cancers. I.e. People who drink, smoke.
- WiggleGuy 5y agoBeginning of abstract: Two genetic variants that alter alcohol metabolism, ALDH2-rs671 and ADH1B-rs1229984, can modify oesophageal cancer risk associated with alcohol consumption in East Asians, but their associations with other cancers remain uncertain.
- Zenst 5y agoThis would be born out with a lower average cancer rate in populations that do not drink alcohol. So one would expect cultures that do not of forbid drinking would have a lower rate of cancer. Alas it is hard to nail down that date due to various factors and types of cancer and equally, associated health care. So a high cancer death rate in one country compared to another, maybe due to health care as well, so really gets down to diagnosis of cancer and types of cancer. Saying cancer is a bit like saying the flu, there are many variations under that catch-all imbrella label. In my search for data, about the most intersting for visualisation would be https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/all-cancers/by-country/ https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/all-cance... Though mindful, health care and with that a better health system would detect more cancer and mind-set of people to seek or be able to approach a health system is a huge factor that only add's to muddy the waters. Hence for me, whilst this maybe a factor, has the data been sanatised for example those that drink and smoke? Those that drink and enviromental factors (air and water quality) and more so, standards of living. Many drink to offset stress caused by many factors and without the details it is hard to nail things down. So would be more interested in a more granular study and per country's Worldwide. Though if you use the link and look at Alcohol and then the Cancer map, there is defiantly something there. Though very much mindful that one countries reporting of data can be less accurate than another's, as we have seen with Covid reporting early on.
- nraynaud 5y agothe study of mormon communities did actually show a lower cancer rate. I can't find the article anymore, but it's visible in breast cancer rate (I don't remember what the study was controlled for).
- lr4444lr 5y agoLots of confounding variables between Mormons and non-Mormons though, yes?
- nraynaud 5y agoI don't know, it's all about regression on other factors. I'm pretty sure you can find a drinking test population in California that is wealthy and non-smokers too. And you can eliminate coffee with a muslim population.
- dsq 5y agoComparing Islamic societies (alcohol forbidden) with others should be a good basis for research. Also, non Islamic sub cultures in Islamic countries (Copts in Egypt, Maronites in Lebanon).
- tmalsburg2 5y agoCausal inference is unfortunately not that simple. If you find differences in cancer rates, it could be due to alcohol consumption or any number of other factors that differ between Islamic societies and other societies. You can try to control those differences statistically but since the set of possible differences is pretty much open-ended, it’s incredibly difficult to say the least.
- thret 5y agoNot really, because they are more likely to lie about how much alcohol and or drugs they take. I have lived in two Muslim countries now and I don't know any Muslims who don't drink in private. I doubt they'd admit to it on a survey though.
- inawarminister 5y agoYou should know me then. No drugs, no alcohol. Only caffeine which I am trying to downregulate with. Though perhaps you should have tried in the mosque rather than the bar :)
- Bissaka 5y agoI'm 40 years old who is a muslim. I spent half of my life living in a muslim/arab country and the other hald in the west. Here is what I've seen: 1- Of all the people I know where I grew up in the arab country, probably only 2-3 drunk. This does correlate with the data [1]. But those 2-3 people did drink heavily. Could you back your personal experience with some stats? 2- Alcohol in the arab world has a different meaning. In the arab world it would be more like: "hey there is this poison, let's drink to forget about my issues and lets do that in hiding". While in the western world, it's more "let's meet for a drink and have a little fun". 3- There is no drinking culture in the arab world. This is because there are limited number of bars/pubs and people do not consume it openly. Not in weddings, gatherings or barbeques. A minority will come already drunk to a wedding (see point 1) 4- Islam is big on forbiding Alcohol. Not only that, but there is this idea that alcohol can stay up to 40 days in your body (never verfied this claim). Hence why a lot of people who actually drink, stop drinking 40 days before Ramadan starts. While a lot of muslims don't pray, the majority do fast and hold onto Ramadan. Bars and Pubs actually close a month before Ramadan too. The drinkers I knew, did actually follow this rule. 5- Yes, I know, you probably knew that guy in high school who was an arab and a heavy drinker. And that is correct. But the data and what I've seen in arab countries correlate more with point 1 above. Alcohol is so frowned upon, that even people who like to drink don't want to show it to their kids or neighbors. It's rare to have an arab family buy alcohol and put it in the fridge. Alcohol is also not available in supermarkets or anywhere except in bars. I lived in >1mil city and we had 3 bars. 6- There is a weird association in arab countries between Alcohol and Violance/Agression. WHich is some time true. I never understood this obssession with Alcohol. Because I just wasn't used to it. It's so bizzare that I had to explain myself all the time on why I'm not drinking. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/alcohol-consumption https://ourworldindata.org/alcohol-consumption
- ypcx 5y agoLife (aging) is a direct cause of cancer. And we can't change that unless we have some sort of nanobots constantly repairing DNA damage in every single cell of our body.
- dfgdfgasqqw 5y agoHow's that related to this story? One outcome might have multiple factors affecting its probability of ocurrence. Just because you can't change life doesn't mean you can't stop alcohol. Life isn't 1 and 0 dude.
- loudtieblahblah 5y agoYou realize the human body has a process thst cleans out damaged and misbehaving cells. Autophagy. This process is kicked off during periods of not eating. We both expose ourselves to too Many toxins, eat too often, and don't get the right balance of nutrients over the long term. If you can positively impact these things, then you can lengthen health span and lifespan.
- rco8786 5y agoDeep thoughts here. Life (aging) is a direct cause of death. And we can’t change that. Might as well die.
- vba616 5y agoI can imagine aging being a technically solvable problem and maybe some of us will live to see it. But if people didn't age, then there would still be a base rate of mortality from illness and accidents, and so for any arbitrary probability (99.9%, etc) there would be a maximum age that one could reasonably expect to live to. For instance, if the only thing people ever died of was car accidents, at a rate of 20 per 100,000 people per year, then it would still be very unlikely for anyone to live more than 20,000 years. That's a long time, but it's not millions or billions of years, much less eternity. Furthermore, if nothing but accidents killed people we might become extremely conservative and do practically nothing for thousands of years. Do I want to use the stairs and risk 99% of my potential lifespan? So maybe one could say that biology and even physics don't ensure death, probability does.
- loudtieblahblah 5y agoEveryone always goes to wine and spirits here... But this should ha e implications for mouthwash too
- q1w2 5y agoDoes the alcohol from mouthwash enter the blood stream in meaningful quantities?
- vba616 5y agoI doubt it's unknown for carcinogenic substances to affect skin or mucus membranes they are in contact with. It's certainly not unthinkable. I know I've heard the phrases "mouth cancer" and "skin cancer". The former probably in connection with chewing tobacco. I genuinely don't know the answer to whether mouthwash could be harmful, assuming one doesn't swallow. But I've thought of the question before.
- q1w2 5y agoThat is an open research subject. https://www.nature.com/articles/sj.bdj.2009.1014 https://www.nature.com/articles/sj.bdj.2009.1014
- CollinEMac 5y agoThe article is clearly about drinking alcohol -- not trace amount of alcohol in your mouth.
- Octabrain 5y agoOk, not good finding that link while suffering from such a terrible hangover from last night as I am right now. I’ve been always concerned about alcohol and health, personally more on the cognitive side than the physical one. I’ve tried to “quit” many times but the thing is that absolutely every social event where I live (UK) involves alcohol in one way or the other. Is crazy how culturally accepted is around the world. You can see it everywhere and the campaign for normalizing its consumption is very obvious. I would definitely like to quit. Is a habit that has only given me bad things or directly nothing at all. Anyways, I hope one day I’ll find a good balance between not drinking at all while not being seen as a weirdo when meeting with friends.