5 ms·

I simulated being stuck in a 12 hour freezing traffic jam in an electic car

32 points by Multicomp 5y ago

nickthenerd 5y ago
Mustang Mach E went from 100% to 75% in 12 hours stationary with room temp inside. Saved you a click.
- walrus01 5y ago
  I wonder what a comparable gasoline car would have consumed in fuel if idled with the passenger compartment heat on for an identical 12 hour period of time in the same ambient temperature.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Assuming, for comparison, a V6 Toyota Highlander, approximately 0.5 – 0.7 gallons of gasoline burned per hour at idle, or 6 - 8.4 gallons of fuel burned in total. Fuel tank capacity is 17.9 gallons, so about 30%-50% would be consumed in 12 hours.
    - beerandt 5y ago
      But you don't need to idle the whole time. As much as I hate the new autostop in cars, it's smart enough to turn the engine on just for heat generation. The bigger issue is the growing number of vehicles that turn themselves off after 20 mins in park, engine running or not.
livinglist 5y ago
this is actually pretty impressive, one reason I kept myself away from purchasing an EV, other than price, is my worry about its battery life. this article definitely reduced my concern.
pomian 5y ago
That's great! It reminds me of the tests Boot magazine used to do, just a user, commenting on what happens, when you use a product.
tomohawk 5y ago
1: People were stuck in that traffic jam for more than 24 hours 2: It is an interstate heavily used by both commuters and through drivers. The odds of being at 100% charge, or even 90% are pretty slim. 3: After getting unstuck, you still have to get to a charging station, and how long will that take to get charged up? With gas, it is 5-10 minutes and you have 500 miles of range. With an EV, how long would you be there? This is relevant to this case as many/most of the drivers on that route are driving a few hundred miles or more. A shorter trip on that stretch would be Baltimore to Richmond, which is 130 miles. 4: The test was against a car with brand new batteries. What about batteries that are 5 years old?
- bhhaskin 5y ago
  Honestly I don't think EVs are the future. They are trendy right now, but are highly impractical if you have to drive a lot or are outside of a city. Besides the fact that a EV's battery pack is pretty much industrial waste after a few years time. The future is likely hydrogen hybrids. All of the benefits of an EV and traditional ICE engines with none of the draw backs.
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    I think the future is EVs, but there will be a niche for EVs with on-board generators to extend the range out indefinitely. These already exist but they will look really different in the future. Maybe that fuel for the generator will be hydrogen.. but I doubt it, there’s no hydrogen infrastructure.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    This is somewhat unobservant? Tesla sells a million EVs/year (and is on track to sell two million in 2022). A variety of Chinese electric bus manufacturers, in aggregate, sell ~60k battery electric busses annually. Electrical charging infrastructure is becoming ubiquitous (electric power is everywhere, from the lowly 120V outlet to the 300kw fast DC charger at your local business), while there is so little hydrogen infra we can safely round down to zero for our purposes. Finally, at the end of a battery pack’s life, it can be recycled (Redwood Materials, started by Tesla’s ex-CTO JB Straubel already has begun ramping production of anode copper foils [1] for, wait for it, Panasonic, Tesla’s US battery cell provider). EVs have already won, having pulled ahead of combustion vehicles and hydrogen vehicles are still stuck at the starting line. [1] https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/press/an-update-on-our-anode-copper-foil-product-amp-facility https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/press/an-update-on-our-anod...
dvngnt_ 5y ago
couldn't you also leave the car on for a few minutes to get warm then turn back off. even better if you have blankets
pedalpete 5y ago
I was taught (in Canada) to always keep a candle in the car in case you get stranded in the winter. In fact, there was a candle made specifically for this purpose (it was flat, in a small tin - https://www.amazon.com/Coghlans-36-HOURS-SURVIVAL-CANDLE/dp/B001ANZJW0 https://www.amazon.com/Coghlans-36-HOURS-SURVIVAL-CANDLE/dp/...) Yeah, I had one always in my car. I live in Australia now, but still kinda tempted to get one. The reason I find this article interesting is, how well would a gasoline car fair under the same conditions? I assume you'd not run it the entire time, but heat it up, let it cool down, and repeat through the test.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Is one candle really enough heat to make a difference?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    Not in the slightest. But, a candle can melt snow. And provide light, useful in emergencies.
    - pedalpete 5y ago
      In the small space of a car, yes it is. Enough to heat the car so you don't freeze to death. It isn't going to be balmy, but you're likely in warm clothes, and it adds enough extra heat.
      - thehappypm 5y ago
        I really don’t think so. Candles are meant for slowly releasing their energy, like, extremely slowly.
  - ianschmitz 5y ago
    Candles can apparently output close to 100W of heat. Why do you say it wouldn’t make a difference in a small space such as a car?
jeroenhd 5y ago
> I would sit in the car like I was stuck in traffic the entire time, keeping the cabin warm enough not just for me but for theoretical passengers as well, and see how much the range dropped in that time. While the idea to control for the passengers is obviously a good one, I feel like I need to point out that in many cases adding more human bodies to an enclosed space will actually reduce the energy needed to heat it. The general internet factoid seems to indicate that humans radiate between 80W and 100W of heat, but those stats are all based on napkin math and don't seem to take into account the heat trapped by winter clothes, so I don't expect the real heat output to be quite so high in this circumstance. Still, even taking half that number, a full car of four people would radiate about 160W-200W of heat just by existing in the closed space. You need more ventilation in the car as you add more people, but I would think you'd end up spending a lot less energy if you actually had real passengers.
- physicles 5y ago
  If we assume that clothing doesn’t impact how many watts a person produces (do cold people produce more?), then clothing doesn’t impact the energy imparted to the car. That 100W has to go somewhere, so if the person+clothing isn’t emitting 100W, their temperature will keep increasing until they do emit 100W.
  - bagacrap 5y ago
    and if they're actually wearing winter clothes you don't really need to heat the cabin at all. I assume the problem in Virginia was that people jumped into their cars with nothing but a sweater, assuming they'd be quickly transferring between climate controlled environments. Every time you leave the house you should be dressing like you're going for a walk in that weather.
baseballbrad3 5y ago
Dirty Tesla did another simulation of an EV in this situation with similar findings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3E0t0kGeug https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3E0t0kGeug Bjorn Nyland (also on YouTube) often sleeps the night in whatever EV he's testing in Norway.

32 points by Multicomp 5y ago

nickthenerd 5y ago

Mustang Mach E went from 100% to 75% in 12 hours stationary with room temp inside. Saved you a click.

walrus01 5y ago
I wonder what a comparable gasoline car would have consumed in fuel if idled with the passenger compartment heat on for an identical 12 hour period of time in the same ambient temperature.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Assuming, for comparison, a V6 Toyota Highlander, approximately 0.5 – 0.7 gallons of gasoline burned per hour at idle, or 6 - 8.4 gallons of fuel burned in total. Fuel tank capacity is 17.9 gallons, so about 30%-50% would be consumed in 12 hours.
  - beerandt 5y ago
    But you don't need to idle the whole time. As much as I hate the new autostop in cars, it's smart enough to turn the engine on just for heat generation. The bigger issue is the growing number of vehicles that turn themselves off after 20 mins in park, engine running or not.

livinglist 5y ago

this is actually pretty impressive, one reason I kept myself away from purchasing an EV, other than price, is my worry about its battery life. this article definitely reduced my concern.

pomian 5y ago

That's great! It reminds me of the tests Boot magazine used to do, just a user, commenting on what happens, when you use a product.

tomohawk 5y ago

1: People were stuck in that traffic jam for more than 24 hours 2: It is an interstate heavily used by both commuters and through drivers. The odds of being at 100% charge, or even 90% are pretty slim. 3: After getting unstuck, you still have to get to a charging station, and how long will that take to get charged up? With gas, it is 5-10 minutes and you have 500 miles of range. With an EV, how long would you be there? This is relevant to this case as many/most of the drivers on that route are driving a few hundred miles or more. A shorter trip on that stretch would be Baltimore to Richmond, which is 130 miles. 4: The test was against a car with brand new batteries. What about batteries that are 5 years old?

bhhaskin 5y ago
Honestly I don't think EVs are the future. They are trendy right now, but are highly impractical if you have to drive a lot or are outside of a city. Besides the fact that a EV's battery pack is pretty much industrial waste after a few years time. The future is likely hydrogen hybrids. All of the benefits of an EV and traditional ICE engines with none of the draw backs.
- thehappypm 5y ago
  I think the future is EVs, but there will be a niche for EVs with on-board generators to extend the range out indefinitely. These already exist but they will look really different in the future. Maybe that fuel for the generator will be hydrogen.. but I doubt it, there’s no hydrogen infrastructure.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  This is somewhat unobservant? Tesla sells a million EVs/year (and is on track to sell two million in 2022). A variety of Chinese electric bus manufacturers, in aggregate, sell ~60k battery electric busses annually. Electrical charging infrastructure is becoming ubiquitous (electric power is everywhere, from the lowly 120V outlet to the 300kw fast DC charger at your local business), while there is so little hydrogen infra we can safely round down to zero for our purposes. Finally, at the end of a battery pack’s life, it can be recycled (Redwood Materials, started by Tesla’s ex-CTO JB Straubel already has begun ramping production of anode copper foils [1] for, wait for it, Panasonic, Tesla’s US battery cell provider). EVs have already won, having pulled ahead of combustion vehicles and hydrogen vehicles are still stuck at the starting line. [1] https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/press/an-update-on-our-anode-copper-foil-product-amp-facility https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/press/an-update-on-our-anod...

dvngnt_ 5y ago

couldn't you also leave the car on for a few minutes to get warm then turn back off. even better if you have blankets

pedalpete 5y ago

I was taught (in Canada) to always keep a candle in the car in case you get stranded in the winter. In fact, there was a candle made specifically for this purpose (it was flat, in a small tin - https://www.amazon.com/Coghlans-36-HOURS-SURVIVAL-CANDLE/dp/B001ANZJW0 https://www.amazon.com/Coghlans-36-HOURS-SURVIVAL-CANDLE/dp/...) Yeah, I had one always in my car. I live in Australia now, but still kinda tempted to get one. The reason I find this article interesting is, how well would a gasoline car fair under the same conditions? I assume you'd not run it the entire time, but heat it up, let it cool down, and repeat through the test.

josephcsible 5y ago
Is one candle really enough heat to make a difference?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- thehappypm 5y ago
  Not in the slightest. But, a candle can melt snow. And provide light, useful in emergencies.
  - pedalpete 5y ago
    In the small space of a car, yes it is. Enough to heat the car so you don't freeze to death. It isn't going to be balmy, but you're likely in warm clothes, and it adds enough extra heat.
    - thehappypm 5y ago
      I really don’t think so. Candles are meant for slowly releasing their energy, like, extremely slowly.
- ianschmitz 5y ago
  Candles can apparently output close to 100W of heat. Why do you say it wouldn’t make a difference in a small space such as a car?

jeroenhd 5y ago

> I would sit in the car like I was stuck in traffic the entire time, keeping the cabin warm enough not just for me but for theoretical passengers as well, and see how much the range dropped in that time. While the idea to control for the passengers is obviously a good one, I feel like I need to point out that in many cases adding more human bodies to an enclosed space will actually reduce the energy needed to heat it. The general internet factoid seems to indicate that humans radiate between 80W and 100W of heat, but those stats are all based on napkin math and don't seem to take into account the heat trapped by winter clothes, so I don't expect the real heat output to be quite so high in this circumstance. Still, even taking half that number, a full car of four people would radiate about 160W-200W of heat just by existing in the closed space. You need more ventilation in the car as you add more people, but I would think you'd end up spending a lot less energy if you actually had real passengers.

physicles 5y ago
If we assume that clothing doesn’t impact how many watts a person produces (do cold people produce more?), then clothing doesn’t impact the energy imparted to the car. That 100W has to go somewhere, so if the person+clothing isn’t emitting 100W, their temperature will keep increasing until they do emit 100W.
- bagacrap 5y ago
  and if they're actually wearing winter clothes you don't really need to heat the cabin at all. I assume the problem in Virginia was that people jumped into their cars with nothing but a sweater, assuming they'd be quickly transferring between climate controlled environments. Every time you leave the house you should be dressing like you're going for a walk in that weather.

baseballbrad3 5y ago

Dirty Tesla did another simulation of an EV in this situation with similar findings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3E0t0kGeug https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3E0t0kGeug Bjorn Nyland (also on YouTube) often sleeps the night in whatever EV he's testing in Norway.