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Agreed, according to the sculptor himself, they are symbolic figures: “The two figures at [Roosevelt’s] side are guides symbolizing the continents of Africa and

Agreed, according to the sculptor himself, they are symbolic figures: “The two figures at [Roosevelt’s] side are guides symbolizing the continents of Africa and America, and if you choose may stand for Roosevelt’s friendliness to all races.” —Sculptor James Earle Fraser, 1940 The online exhibit is an interesting deeper look at the statue and controversy. https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/addressing-the-theodore-roosevelt-statue/making-the-statue https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/addressing-the-theodore-roo...

tptacek 5y ago
Further, in the context that statement was made, Roosevelt's "friendliness to all races" was freighted with some icky stuff --- that, for instance, leading them out of the darkness of their indigenous culture was a great favor done for them by western civilization.
- defaultprimate 5y ago
  Yeah man, all cultures are valid and deserve to exist, even if they sacrifice thousands of children annually, regularly participate in cannibalism, etc. Westerners should have just ignored this stuff when they encountered it. The world would definitely be a better, more equitable place.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    You're making my argument for me.
    - defaultprimate 5y ago
      I'm sure I am, with your unrealistic perspective of human progress and development and the uncomfortable truths of history you refuse to acknowledge. I, for one, am glad we decided cultures like Nazism are not valid or worth preserving. It's unfortunate that only Western cultures are allowed to be viewed with a critical eye.
      - ashwagary 5y ago
        >regularly participate in cannibalism >Westerners should have just ignored this stuff when they encountered it. That's odd because most of the cannabalism on the planet took place in Europe. The euro-anti-cannabalism stance is barely a century old. Remember, food scarcity wasn't an issue in much of the rest of the world and unlike Europe, the non-European world had enough medical/scientific knowledge to understand human meat cured no illnesses. So why dont we have many more Egyptain mummies? Because Europeans literally ate tens of thousands of them. The savages aren't who you think they are.
        defaultprimate 5y ago
        Weird how the West progressed but many cultures hadn't even invented the wheel by the time of colonialism. Nice try with the pre-enlightenment & pre-colonialism whataboutism though. Instances of cannibalism for reasons other than desperation or individual criminality are basically non existent in western culture after the 15th century, and were certainly not a staple of culture. This is even more true for things like human sacrifice. It's also completely false that cannibalism was more rampant in Europe than anywhere else. That's laughable. It was prolific in Africa, the Americas, Australia & New Zealand pre-colonialism, some parts of East Asia. Meanwhile hundreds of thousands of human sacrifice annually were taking place among native Americans. Cannibalism was and is a regular part of many African cultures, and also was widespread among native Americans. Some cultures are better than others. That's just a fact. And it's not just Nazis that are bad.
        ashwagary 5y ago
        >Weird how the West progressed but many cultures hadn't even invented the wheel by the time of colonialism. It's hard not to economically progress when one robs and sabotages all the largest economies in the world. Using deception and fraud in a time where honorable men were revered is an edge, I agree. You are pointing out rituals in the rest of the world but those were occassional ceremonies. In Europe, eating humans was "just lunch" or "just a meat pie", not a once in a year religious event. Same for European human blood drinking, which was very popular as medicine and a thirst quencher for more than 1000 years. >basically non existent in western culture after the 15th century Wrong, European medicine was primitive at best until the mid 19th century, colonisation is how Europeans gathered most of the valid medical knowledge from the world (indegenous herb and plant medicine knoweledge plays an outsized role in what we consider modern pharma). Europeans also ate most of the mummies in existence. Are you claiming Europeans ate all of the mummies they did eat before the 15th century? Before the major European excavations in Egypt occurred? Nonsense, the trade started much later and continued well into the 1900s. This is historical fact. --- "Mummy was still sold as medicine in a German medical catalog at the beginning of the 20th century. And in 1908, a last known attempt was made in Germany to swallow blood at the scaffold. "Mummies, Cannibals and Vampires: The History of Corpse Medicine from the Renaissance to the Victorians, reveal that for several hundred years, peaking in the 16th and 17th centuries, many Europeans, including royalty, priests and scientists, routinely ingested remedies containing human bones, blood and fat as medicine for everything from headaches to epilepsy" “...the poor, who couldn’t always afford the processed compounds sold in apothecaries, could gain the benefits of cannibal medicine by standing by at executions, paying a small amount for a cup of the still-warm blood of the condemned.The executioner was considered a big healer in Germanic countries,” says Sugg. “He was a social leper with almost magical powers.” For those who preferred their blood cooked, a 1679 recipe from a Franciscan apothecary describes how to make it into marmalade." https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-... I repeat... >The savages arent who you think they are.

tptacek 5y ago

Further, in the context that statement was made, Roosevelt's "friendliness to all races" was freighted with some icky stuff --- that, for instance, leading them out of the darkness of their indigenous culture was a great favor done for them by western civilization.

defaultprimate 5y ago
Yeah man, all cultures are valid and deserve to exist, even if they sacrifice thousands of children annually, regularly participate in cannibalism, etc. Westerners should have just ignored this stuff when they encountered it. The world would definitely be a better, more equitable place.
- tptacek 5y ago
  You're making my argument for me.
  - defaultprimate 5y ago
    I'm sure I am, with your unrealistic perspective of human progress and development and the uncomfortable truths of history you refuse to acknowledge. I, for one, am glad we decided cultures like Nazism are not valid or worth preserving. It's unfortunate that only Western cultures are allowed to be viewed with a critical eye.
    - ashwagary 5y ago
      >regularly participate in cannibalism >Westerners should have just ignored this stuff when they encountered it. That's odd because most of the cannabalism on the planet took place in Europe. The euro-anti-cannabalism stance is barely a century old. Remember, food scarcity wasn't an issue in much of the rest of the world and unlike Europe, the non-European world had enough medical/scientific knowledge to understand human meat cured no illnesses. So why dont we have many more Egyptain mummies? Because Europeans literally ate tens of thousands of them. The savages aren't who you think they are.
      - defaultprimate 5y ago
        Weird how the West progressed but many cultures hadn't even invented the wheel by the time of colonialism. Nice try with the pre-enlightenment & pre-colonialism whataboutism though. Instances of cannibalism for reasons other than desperation or individual criminality are basically non existent in western culture after the 15th century, and were certainly not a staple of culture. This is even more true for things like human sacrifice. It's also completely false that cannibalism was more rampant in Europe than anywhere else. That's laughable. It was prolific in Africa, the Americas, Australia & New Zealand pre-colonialism, some parts of East Asia. Meanwhile hundreds of thousands of human sacrifice annually were taking place among native Americans. Cannibalism was and is a regular part of many African cultures, and also was widespread among native Americans. Some cultures are better than others. That's just a fact. And it's not just Nazis that are bad.
        ashwagary 5y ago
        >Weird how the West progressed but many cultures hadn't even invented the wheel by the time of colonialism. It's hard not to economically progress when one robs and sabotages all the largest economies in the world. Using deception and fraud in a time where honorable men were revered is an edge, I agree. You are pointing out rituals in the rest of the world but those were occassional ceremonies. In Europe, eating humans was "just lunch" or "just a meat pie", not a once in a year religious event. Same for European human blood drinking, which was very popular as medicine and a thirst quencher for more than 1000 years. >basically non existent in western culture after the 15th century Wrong, European medicine was primitive at best until the mid 19th century, colonisation is how Europeans gathered most of the valid medical knowledge from the world (indegenous herb and plant medicine knoweledge plays an outsized role in what we consider modern pharma). Europeans also ate most of the mummies in existence. Are you claiming Europeans ate all of the mummies they did eat before the 15th century? Before the major European excavations in Egypt occurred? Nonsense, the trade started much later and continued well into the 1900s. This is historical fact. --- "Mummy was still sold as medicine in a German medical catalog at the beginning of the 20th century. And in 1908, a last known attempt was made in Germany to swallow blood at the scaffold. "Mummies, Cannibals and Vampires: The History of Corpse Medicine from the Renaissance to the Victorians, reveal that for several hundred years, peaking in the 16th and 17th centuries, many Europeans, including royalty, priests and scientists, routinely ingested remedies containing human bones, blood and fat as medicine for everything from headaches to epilepsy" “...the poor, who couldn’t always afford the processed compounds sold in apothecaries, could gain the benefits of cannibal medicine by standing by at executions, paying a small amount for a cup of the still-warm blood of the condemned.The executioner was considered a big healer in Germanic countries,” says Sugg. “He was a social leper with almost magical powers.” For those who preferred their blood cooked, a 1679 recipe from a Franciscan apothecary describes how to make it into marmalade." https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-... I repeat... >The savages arent who you think they are.