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This is a completely absurd claim. I make international payments regularly using things like Wise (formerly transferwise), and it’s far simpler than any crypto

by zepto 5y ago

This is a completely absurd claim. I make international payments regularly using things like Wise (formerly transferwise), and it’s far simpler than any crypto solution, and accepted by everyone. And yes, I own some crypto and could use it if anyone was willing to take it. The only case where it is simpler is there there are capital control, and in that case it is being used illegally.

csdvrx 5y ago
> And yes, I own some crypto and could use it if anyone was willing to take it. And if you're sending money to Argentinians, they would beg you for it, as otherwise your recipient would just receive a fraction of the USD you send because of the difference between the official rate the government enforce, and the real rate. Read about Blue Dollar in Argentina and you'll realize you're very mistaken in your idea that Wise is the solution there.
- pwinnski 5y ago
  Wise doesn't send physical dollar bills to Argentina, so your reference doesn't apply. Send money via Wise or any other app, and either spend it from there, or withdraw it in pesos. Nothing is lost, and it's as easy, fast, and cheap to use as any crypto-currency solution.
  - csdvrx 5y ago
    Oh yes it does apply: send in crypto, and the locals will get more (blue rate) that many (most!) people will gladly accept instead of pesos! Nothing is lost to you in either case, but if you send it USD in the official ways, something is lost to those who'll receive less money.
    - twelve40 5y ago
      Once it becomes a serious enough problem for the government, they will just strangle the off-ramps, like it's been done before. So this makes such method of transfer... a temporary hack?
      - csdvrx 5y ago
        > Once it becomes a serious enough problem for the government, they will just strangle the off-ramps, like it's been done before. So this makes such method of transfer... a temporary hack? Temporary, if you believe it can be strangled. Given the lack of success of the Argentinian government with the Blue Dollar, my Bayesian prior is that it won't be temporary!
    - twelve40 5y ago
      Also, this makes me wonder. If there is such a massive influx of inbound cryptocurrency transfers, where does the cash for them come from? Surely whoever cashes those transfers out has to sell the cryptocurrency to _someone_? It doesn't sound like it's balanced out by the outbound transfers? Or someone is sitting on a massive pile of fiat and handing it out to hold a massive pile of coins?
      - csdvrx 5y ago
        Take this thought experiment: imagine you're given the opportunity to purchase a crypto like BTC for say 20 grands per BTC. Even if you don't believe in the business model of crypto, you would jump on the purchase (irreversible being a nice feature) then you'll immediately flip it (liquidate it) on the open market, for a nice profit, right? Now think about the general case: you pay a bit less than the going price in the rest of the world, to take into account the problem of "where the cash come from" (certainly not a difficulty for a country with as large as Argentina, with multiple land borders and sea ports) and price in the cost of solving this problem. Given the right price, you'll find clients, as every trade needs a counterparty, for a mutually beneficial exchange. And you then have the answer to your question.
        andreskytt 5y ago
        Basically crypto is a way to scale up illegal financial activity? One trader has a way to get money in nobody asks questions about and is able to capitalize that ability.
        csdvrx 5y ago
        The laws of Argentina do not matters to us in the US: if some company wants actual dollar bills to distribute them in South America, can prove the source of their funds is trading crypto, and pays for that service, who are we to tell them "no, that's bad, I won't do business with you". It's a good thing for everyone - including the people in Argentina who get to enjoy the Blue Dollar by receiving more from the remittance. Check https://www.pymnts.com/news/cross-border-commerce/cross-border-payments/2021/new-data-25-percent-united-states-cross-border-remittance-senders-use-cryptocurrency/ https://www.pymnts.com/news/cross-border-commerce/cross-bord... if you still can't see crypto being useful for remittances. BTW It's quite frightening to see replies likes yours. Most people here on HN seems to have a blind admiration for governments and laws, with about 0 critical thinking abilities when it comes to policies that are ultimately harmful (for ex, based on what I read here about Wise etc, I'd summarize the default HN position to "let's make our apps obey currency control laws in Argentina, even if it further impoverishes the locals!") until they are ultimately proved pointless (ex: turning back Australia into a prison island to control a virus as contagious as the smallpox... yeah not gonna work, but thanks for demonstrating that)
- andreskytt 5y ago
  Observe, this is a policy limitation rather than a technological one. These policies can and will change and there can and will be limits to crypto in the country. Unless you can get everyone in the country to accept crypto, you’d still need a way to convert it to local fiat. And everyone in the country will absolutely not accept crypto as the transaction costs are prohibitive.
jcburnham 5y ago
I'm glad you brought up Wise! I love Wise and use it frequently. However, there are some jurisdictions it simply doesn't work for. For example, there is currently no way for a US company to use Wise Business to pay a Brazilian contractor. This is not because such payments are illegal, but rather because the Brazilian financial system has poor norms and poor rule-of-law: https://techcrunch.com/2021/03/16/wise-accuses-former-brazil-banking-partner-of-smear-campaign/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/03/16/wise-accuses-former-brazil....
- andreskytt 5y ago
  This absolutely does not stop you from doing what Wise does under the hood: have bank accounts in two countries and settle using comms rather than the banking system. A message comes in “Alice should now be given x amount from the local account” and a local bank transfer is executed.
  - jcburnham 5y ago
    Yes, you could do that if the payment volume was high and bidirectional. It doesn't work at all for a company that occasionally has to pay someone in Brazil, but has no revenue or presence in Brazil.

by zepto 5y ago

csdvrx 5y ago

> And yes, I own some crypto and could use it if anyone was willing to take it. And if you're sending money to Argentinians, they would beg you for it, as otherwise your recipient would just receive a fraction of the USD you send because of the difference between the official rate the government enforce, and the real rate. Read about Blue Dollar in Argentina and you'll realize you're very mistaken in your idea that Wise is the solution there.

pwinnski 5y ago
Wise doesn't send physical dollar bills to Argentina, so your reference doesn't apply. Send money via Wise or any other app, and either spend it from there, or withdraw it in pesos. Nothing is lost, and it's as easy, fast, and cheap to use as any crypto-currency solution.
- csdvrx 5y ago
  Oh yes it does apply: send in crypto, and the locals will get more (blue rate) that many (most!) people will gladly accept instead of pesos! Nothing is lost to you in either case, but if you send it USD in the official ways, something is lost to those who'll receive less money.
  - twelve40 5y ago
    Once it becomes a serious enough problem for the government, they will just strangle the off-ramps, like it's been done before. So this makes such method of transfer... a temporary hack?
    - csdvrx 5y ago
      > Once it becomes a serious enough problem for the government, they will just strangle the off-ramps, like it's been done before. So this makes such method of transfer... a temporary hack? Temporary, if you believe it can be strangled. Given the lack of success of the Argentinian government with the Blue Dollar, my Bayesian prior is that it won't be temporary!
  - twelve40 5y ago
    Also, this makes me wonder. If there is such a massive influx of inbound cryptocurrency transfers, where does the cash for them come from? Surely whoever cashes those transfers out has to sell the cryptocurrency to _someone_? It doesn't sound like it's balanced out by the outbound transfers? Or someone is sitting on a massive pile of fiat and handing it out to hold a massive pile of coins?
    - csdvrx 5y ago
      Take this thought experiment: imagine you're given the opportunity to purchase a crypto like BTC for say 20 grands per BTC. Even if you don't believe in the business model of crypto, you would jump on the purchase (irreversible being a nice feature) then you'll immediately flip it (liquidate it) on the open market, for a nice profit, right? Now think about the general case: you pay a bit less than the going price in the rest of the world, to take into account the problem of "where the cash come from" (certainly not a difficulty for a country with as large as Argentina, with multiple land borders and sea ports) and price in the cost of solving this problem. Given the right price, you'll find clients, as every trade needs a counterparty, for a mutually beneficial exchange. And you then have the answer to your question.
      - andreskytt 5y ago
        Basically crypto is a way to scale up illegal financial activity? One trader has a way to get money in nobody asks questions about and is able to capitalize that ability.
        csdvrx 5y ago
        The laws of Argentina do not matters to us in the US: if some company wants actual dollar bills to distribute them in South America, can prove the source of their funds is trading crypto, and pays for that service, who are we to tell them "no, that's bad, I won't do business with you". It's a good thing for everyone - including the people in Argentina who get to enjoy the Blue Dollar by receiving more from the remittance. Check https://www.pymnts.com/news/cross-border-commerce/cross-border-payments/2021/new-data-25-percent-united-states-cross-border-remittance-senders-use-cryptocurrency/ https://www.pymnts.com/news/cross-border-commerce/cross-bord... if you still can't see crypto being useful for remittances. BTW It's quite frightening to see replies likes yours. Most people here on HN seems to have a blind admiration for governments and laws, with about 0 critical thinking abilities when it comes to policies that are ultimately harmful (for ex, based on what I read here about Wise etc, I'd summarize the default HN position to "let's make our apps obey currency control laws in Argentina, even if it further impoverishes the locals!") until they are ultimately proved pointless (ex: turning back Australia into a prison island to control a virus as contagious as the smallpox... yeah not gonna work, but thanks for demonstrating that)
andreskytt 5y ago
Observe, this is a policy limitation rather than a technological one. These policies can and will change and there can and will be limits to crypto in the country. Unless you can get everyone in the country to accept crypto, you’d still need a way to convert it to local fiat. And everyone in the country will absolutely not accept crypto as the transaction costs are prohibitive.

jcburnham 5y ago

I'm glad you brought up Wise! I love Wise and use it frequently. However, there are some jurisdictions it simply doesn't work for. For example, there is currently no way for a US company to use Wise Business to pay a Brazilian contractor. This is not because such payments are illegal, but rather because the Brazilian financial system has poor norms and poor rule-of-law: https://techcrunch.com/2021/03/16/wise-accuses-former-brazil-banking-partner-of-smear-campaign/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/03/16/wise-accuses-former-brazil....

andreskytt 5y ago
This absolutely does not stop you from doing what Wise does under the hood: have bank accounts in two countries and settle using comms rather than the banking system. A message comes in “Alice should now be given x amount from the local account” and a local bank transfer is executed.
- jcburnham 5y ago
  Yes, you could do that if the payment volume was high and bidirectional. It doesn't work at all for a company that occasionally has to pay someone in Brazil, but has no revenue or presence in Brazil.