6 ms·

I’m Stuck with an Anti-Semitic Labor Union

14 points by kerneloftruth 5y ago

tharne 5y ago
For whatever reason, it's become acceptable on the left to be anti-Semitic so long as you sanitize it by wrapping it in anti-Israel sentiment. It reminds of how the right used rationalize anti-gay sentiment by saying "Oh, we don't hate the sinner, we just hate the sin".
- coolgeek 5y ago
  By this logic, one can't be anti-CCP without being anti-chinese.
  - ars 5y ago
    It's not about what can be, it's about what actually is. People who are not antisemitic typically say "but you can criticize Israel", and they are right, and they don't understand. The trouble is that in the real world people who criticize Israel and not antisemitic are vanishingly rare. It's like "black lives matter", people are not not racist find it very racist and respond "all lives matter", and they don't get it. People who experience racism, explain "black lives matter" doesn't imply anything about other people. In the real world you almost never find people who criticize Israel who are not also antisemitic. For example, in this very thread "level1" tries to criticize Israel with a factually false accusation, checking his post history finds him singling out Jews. This is pretty typical.
    - coolgeek 5y ago
      > The trouble is that in the real world people who criticize Israel and not antisemitic are vanishingly rare. Where is your evidence for this? By evidence, I mean 1) empirical, not anecdotal 2) from a non-partisan source
    - level1 5y ago
      > For example, in this very thread "level1" tries to criticize Israel with a factually false accusation, checking his post history finds him singling out Jews. This is pretty typical. To be clear I am referring to this - but then I think you'll criticize all of HRW as anti-semitic as well right? Come one and deal with reality. https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra... Most people are past the point of debating whether it is apartheid or not. Most Israelis believe that Israel should give preferential rights to Jews: "Most Israeli Jews (79%) say Jews deserve preferential treatment in Israel." Also 50% support transfer of Arabs out of the state: "The survey asked Jews whether they strongly agree, agree, disagree or strongly disagree with the statement that “Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel.” Roughly half of Israeli Jews strongly agree (21%) or agree (27%), while a similar share disagree (29%) or strongly disagree (17%).3" Both are from: https://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/ https://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divi...
- Miner49er 5y ago
  No, this is just Israel finding a way to avoid criticism. Any time someone tries to criticize Israel, they just get labelled an anti-Semite by Israel supporters. It's a way to shutdown any criticism of Israel. It's extremely disingenuous. There's other part of this article that are also disingenuous - "It equated the policies of Israel, of which I am a citizen and where I still have family, with apartheid." It's disingenuous to claim Israel's policies aren't apartheid when they literally say things like, "The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Natio...
  - hw-guy 5y ago
    Many nations have an official religion, often enshrined in their constitutions or even their names; for example, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and several others are officially defined by adherence to Islam. Many of these nations have terrible human rights records with respect to women, gays, and members of other religions. Many make the practice of other religions illegal. Yet only Israel,the world's only Jewish state, is singled out for boycotts and called an "apartheid state" by academics. Why? That is what is so clearly anti-Semitic about these boycotts.
    - pthread_t 5y ago
      25% of American Jews call Israel an apartheid state [0]. Are those Jews anti-semitic as well? Israel also doesn't like it when the U.S. criticizes other human rights abusers, such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt [1]. [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-a-quarter-of-us-jews-think-israel-is-apartheid-state/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-a-quarter-of-us-jew... [1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-officials-cautioned-biden-against-heavy-criticism-of-egypt-saudi-arabia/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-officials-cautioned-bi...
- lalaland1125 5y ago
  Or maybe some people simply disagree with Israel's settlement policies. Automatically assuming that criticism of Israel is antisemitic seems just as productive as assuming that criticism of China is sinophobic.
- epsteindidntk 5y ago
level1 5y ago
Israel is an apartheid state though there a large component of its population does not have rights that the other does. And it has stayed like this for many decades. Denouncing human rights violations is not anti-semitic.
- hw-guy 5y ago
  It is if Israel, the only Jewish state, is consistently singled out for criticism when other states with far worse human rights records are excused.
Regino 5y ago
There are a lot of people who never read any part of any Bible, have no interest in the Middle East and never want to visit there, who might not necessarily understand why criticism of Israel's military is considered automatically racist. Can someone explain that? Because the article doesn't really connect those dots for me. And the article doesn't really make any sense unless you already had that opinion.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Every country's government has flaws, and criticizing them in general is fine. But when the only country you criticize for a given reason is also the only Jewish country in the world, despite there being a lot of other countries with the same (or worse) flaw, it becomes a reasonable assumption to think that anti-Semitism is why.
  - gamesetmath 5y ago
    Everyone hates ethnocentric snowflakes. As they should.
pthread_t 5y ago
When Ben and Jerry's boycotts the West Bank due to Israel's illegal settlements, the Israeli president calls it terrorism, and claims it is a boycott against Israel [0]. When people ask why Palestinians living in the West Bank are treated abhorrently, where they cannot use the same roads as Israelis, they cannot use the same legal system as Israelis, etc. Israelis claim that the West Bank is not a part of Israel. As a Jew that grew up believing Israel is righteous and can do no wrong, I have had quite the rude awakening. I am not alone -- 25% of American Jews now believe Israel is an apartheid state [1]. Even young evangelicals are no longer blindly embracing Israel [2]. [0] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-s-president-ben-jerry-s-boycott-is-part-of-a-new-form-of-terrorism-1.10017445 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-s-presid... [1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-a-quarter-of-us-jews-think-israel-is-apartheid-state/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-a-quarter-of-us-jew... [2] https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/05/26/as-israel-increasingly-relies-on-us-evangelicals-for-support-younger-ones-are-walking-away-what-polls-show/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/05/26/a...

14 points by kerneloftruth 5y ago

For whatever reason, it's become acceptable on the left to be anti-Semitic so long as you sanitize it by wrapping it in anti-Israel sentiment. It reminds of how the right used rationalize anti-gay sentiment by saying "Oh, we don't hate the sinner, we just hate the sin".

coolgeek 5y ago
By this logic, one can't be anti-CCP without being anti-chinese.
- ars 5y ago
  It's not about what can be, it's about what actually is. People who are not antisemitic typically say "but you can criticize Israel", and they are right, and they don't understand. The trouble is that in the real world people who criticize Israel and not antisemitic are vanishingly rare. It's like "black lives matter", people are not not racist find it very racist and respond "all lives matter", and they don't get it. People who experience racism, explain "black lives matter" doesn't imply anything about other people. In the real world you almost never find people who criticize Israel who are not also antisemitic. For example, in this very thread "level1" tries to criticize Israel with a factually false accusation, checking his post history finds him singling out Jews. This is pretty typical.
  - coolgeek 5y ago
    > The trouble is that in the real world people who criticize Israel and not antisemitic are vanishingly rare. Where is your evidence for this? By evidence, I mean 1) empirical, not anecdotal 2) from a non-partisan source
  - level1 5y ago
    > For example, in this very thread "level1" tries to criticize Israel with a factually false accusation, checking his post history finds him singling out Jews. This is pretty typical. To be clear I am referring to this - but then I think you'll criticize all of HRW as anti-semitic as well right? Come one and deal with reality. https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra... Most people are past the point of debating whether it is apartheid or not. Most Israelis believe that Israel should give preferential rights to Jews: "Most Israeli Jews (79%) say Jews deserve preferential treatment in Israel." Also 50% support transfer of Arabs out of the state: "The survey asked Jews whether they strongly agree, agree, disagree or strongly disagree with the statement that “Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel.” Roughly half of Israeli Jews strongly agree (21%) or agree (27%), while a similar share disagree (29%) or strongly disagree (17%).3" Both are from: https://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/ https://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divi...
Miner49er 5y ago
No, this is just Israel finding a way to avoid criticism. Any time someone tries to criticize Israel, they just get labelled an anti-Semite by Israel supporters. It's a way to shutdown any criticism of Israel. It's extremely disingenuous. There's other part of this article that are also disingenuous - "It equated the policies of Israel, of which I am a citizen and where I still have family, with apartheid." It's disingenuous to claim Israel's policies aren't apartheid when they literally say things like, "The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Natio...
- hw-guy 5y ago
  Many nations have an official religion, often enshrined in their constitutions or even their names; for example, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and several others are officially defined by adherence to Islam. Many of these nations have terrible human rights records with respect to women, gays, and members of other religions. Many make the practice of other religions illegal. Yet only Israel,the world's only Jewish state, is singled out for boycotts and called an "apartheid state" by academics. Why? That is what is so clearly anti-Semitic about these boycotts.
  - pthread_t 5y ago
    25% of American Jews call Israel an apartheid state [0]. Are those Jews anti-semitic as well? Israel also doesn't like it when the U.S. criticizes other human rights abusers, such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt [1]. [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-a-quarter-of-us-jews-think-israel-is-apartheid-state/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-a-quarter-of-us-jew... [1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-officials-cautioned-biden-against-heavy-criticism-of-egypt-saudi-arabia/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-officials-cautioned-bi...
lalaland1125 5y ago
Or maybe some people simply disagree with Israel's settlement policies. Automatically assuming that criticism of Israel is antisemitic seems just as productive as assuming that criticism of China is sinophobic.
epsteindidntk 5y ago

level1 5y ago

Israel is an apartheid state though there a large component of its population does not have rights that the other does. And it has stayed like this for many decades. Denouncing human rights violations is not anti-semitic.

hw-guy 5y ago
It is if Israel, the only Jewish state, is consistently singled out for criticism when other states with far worse human rights records are excused.

Regino 5y ago

There are a lot of people who never read any part of any Bible, have no interest in the Middle East and never want to visit there, who might not necessarily understand why criticism of Israel's military is considered automatically racist. Can someone explain that? Because the article doesn't really connect those dots for me. And the article doesn't really make any sense unless you already had that opinion.

josephcsible 5y ago
Every country's government has flaws, and criticizing them in general is fine. But when the only country you criticize for a given reason is also the only Jewish country in the world, despite there being a lot of other countries with the same (or worse) flaw, it becomes a reasonable assumption to think that anti-Semitism is why.
- gamesetmath 5y ago
  Everyone hates ethnocentric snowflakes. As they should.

pthread_t 5y ago

When Ben and Jerry's boycotts the West Bank due to Israel's illegal settlements, the Israeli president calls it terrorism, and claims it is a boycott against Israel [0]. When people ask why Palestinians living in the West Bank are treated abhorrently, where they cannot use the same roads as Israelis, they cannot use the same legal system as Israelis, etc. Israelis claim that the West Bank is not a part of Israel. As a Jew that grew up believing Israel is righteous and can do no wrong, I have had quite the rude awakening. I am not alone -- 25% of American Jews now believe Israel is an apartheid state [1]. Even young evangelicals are no longer blindly embracing Israel [2]. [0] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-s-president-ben-jerry-s-boycott-is-part-of-a-new-form-of-terrorism-1.10017445 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-s-presid... [1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-a-quarter-of-us-jews-think-israel-is-apartheid-state/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-a-quarter-of-us-jew... [2] https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/05/26/as-israel-increasingly-relies-on-us-evangelicals-for-support-younger-ones-are-walking-away-what-polls-show/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/05/26/a...