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I was involved in writing software for a small Fab and there is a big gap in the MES software space. If you want to start a new Fab, you need a manufacturing ex

I was involved in writing software for a small Fab and there is a big gap in the MES software space. If you want to start a new Fab, you need a manufacturing execution system (MES) to process wafers. This whole MES industry is ripe for innovation. For small Fabs, it’s not possible to afford MES-3000 from Applied Materials ~ multi-million $ license fees and it’s a beast of a system. I’ve had to deal with this ancient dog of a MES written in Coldfusion. Had several conversations with coworkers - “Wonder what the market is like for modern SaaS MES”. It’s a complex problem if you want to auto load recipes and control equipment with SECS/GEM, implement PCS, and run a Fab in the manner like Intel. This is one of the problems with scaling the Fab. Think automotive factory scaling but with expensive precision equipment and garbage software ecosystem.

dqpb 5y ago
Do you have any references where someone could learn more about this?
- mjevans 5y ago
  They might not be able to share more given NDAs and such.
- nwiswell 5y ago
  You can read the SEMI standards. All of this is thoroughly standardized to allow interoperability between equipment from different suppliers. SECS (SEMI Equipment Communications Standard) and GEM (Generic Model for Communications and Control of Manufacturing Equipment) will be of particular interest. https://www.semi.org/en/industry-groups/smart-manufacturing/standards https://www.semi.org/en/industry-groups/smart-manufacturing/...
uoaei 5y ago
SaaS is too unstable for semiconductor manufacturers to rely on. They would want a locally-installed, stable X.Y.Z implementation.
- octoberfranklin 5y ago
  This. "Copy Exactly" is not compatible with SaaS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_Exactly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_Exactly
  - neilpanchal 5y ago
    Well, it would be a typical enterprise installation. Presumably on-prem or some hybrid.
    - nwiswell 5y ago
      At that point how is it differentiated from the incumbent product? If you are running a serious fab you already have AMAT equipment anyway and there's probably good reasons to get the industry standard AMAT MES software. Realistically, this software will probably continue not to exist because there are not many target customers in this "mini-fab" segment, and they are uniformly poor. That's not a great outlook for sales. If your software is any good, you want to market to the same segment AMAT does and go for the multi-million $ licensing fees.
    - uoaei 5y ago
      Then what makes it a service? It would be unwieldy to bring in consultants... unless they can take over for the extant fab techs as soon as they arrive. Any downtime in the fab is millions lost.
phpnode 5y ago
curious whether you've seen Oqton? https://www.oqton.com/ https://www.oqton.com/
BostonEnginerd 5y ago
There are a few options for smaller fabs. There's SiView from IBM, a few products from Inficon which can handle much of an MES's capabilities and some others: [1] https://www.ibm.com/products/siview https://www.ibm.com/products/siview [2] https://ims.inficon.com/ https://ims.inficon.com/ [3] https://kontron-ais.com/en/products/factory-automation/fabeagle-mes/ https://kontron-ais.com/en/products/factory-automation/fabea... [4] https://www.peergroup.com/expertise/factories/factory-automation/ https://www.peergroup.com/expertise/factories/factory-automa... I'd bet there is a reasonable market for a good SAAS MES, or at least parts of a total solution. I imagine that you would want at last part of the solution to be on-prem, to avoid shuttling the large amounts of data that process tools are producing offsite.

dqpb 5y ago

Do you have any references where someone could learn more about this?

mjevans 5y ago
They might not be able to share more given NDAs and such.
nwiswell 5y ago
You can read the SEMI standards. All of this is thoroughly standardized to allow interoperability between equipment from different suppliers. SECS (SEMI Equipment Communications Standard) and GEM (Generic Model for Communications and Control of Manufacturing Equipment) will be of particular interest. https://www.semi.org/en/industry-groups/smart-manufacturing/standards https://www.semi.org/en/industry-groups/smart-manufacturing/...

uoaei 5y ago

SaaS is too unstable for semiconductor manufacturers to rely on. They would want a locally-installed, stable X.Y.Z implementation.

octoberfranklin 5y ago
This. "Copy Exactly" is not compatible with SaaS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_Exactly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_Exactly
- neilpanchal 5y ago
  Well, it would be a typical enterprise installation. Presumably on-prem or some hybrid.
  - nwiswell 5y ago
    At that point how is it differentiated from the incumbent product? If you are running a serious fab you already have AMAT equipment anyway and there's probably good reasons to get the industry standard AMAT MES software. Realistically, this software will probably continue not to exist because there are not many target customers in this "mini-fab" segment, and they are uniformly poor. That's not a great outlook for sales. If your software is any good, you want to market to the same segment AMAT does and go for the multi-million $ licensing fees.
  - uoaei 5y ago
    Then what makes it a service? It would be unwieldy to bring in consultants... unless they can take over for the extant fab techs as soon as they arrive. Any downtime in the fab is millions lost.

phpnode 5y ago

curious whether you've seen Oqton? https://www.oqton.com/ https://www.oqton.com/

BostonEnginerd 5y ago

There are a few options for smaller fabs. There's SiView from IBM, a few products from Inficon which can handle much of an MES's capabilities and some others: [1] https://www.ibm.com/products/siview https://www.ibm.com/products/siview [2] https://ims.inficon.com/ https://ims.inficon.com/ [3] https://kontron-ais.com/en/products/factory-automation/fabeagle-mes/ https://kontron-ais.com/en/products/factory-automation/fabea... [4] https://www.peergroup.com/expertise/factories/factory-automation/ https://www.peergroup.com/expertise/factories/factory-automa... I'd bet there is a reasonable market for a good SAAS MES, or at least parts of a total solution. I imagine that you would want at last part of the solution to be on-prem, to avoid shuttling the large amounts of data that process tools are producing offsite.