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Yea, it’s always a struggle. UI wise it clearly looks better to use flags and people know what it’s for when they see it. There’s always people who complain abo

Yea, it’s always a struggle. UI wise it clearly looks better to use flags and people know what it’s for when they see it. There’s always people who complain about it though. I’m of the opinion to not worry about it and just use the flags. It’s enough effort to properly internationalize a site and keep it maintained. That it’s available at all is a huge effort. Debating flags vs a drop down with languages is nitpicking IMO. Plus, when the language codes include a country it’s a natural UI decision. EDIT: Supporting multiple languages increases the complexity of the entire development pipeline. Translation teams are brought in, translation tools are brought in to support in-code language as well as translations in the database itself. Every new text snippet needs to be translated to each language to deploy it. Your search features get more complicated, date formats, number formats, currency, collations. Every language you add increases this complexity. Because of that, you will represent a language with a primary country and not every language spoken in that country. On the chance that a company has opted to go all in to support region specific dialects of languages where 100+ choices will be listed, then no…of course flags wouldn’t work. But in most cases you’re lucky to get 2 languages at all with potential for a couple more for all but the largest of companies. Virtually every other site is just going to use one and churn out some Google translations or ask you to do that yourself. After considering all that, yes…just use flags.

capableweb 5y ago
> Plus, when the language codes include a country it’s a natural UI decision. Un-natural UI decision then if a language can exists in more than one country, and one country can have many languages?
galgalesh 5y ago
Yeah, just use flags and confuse the fuck out of multilingual countries. Belgium has Dutch, German and French as official languages. So what would a Belgian flag mean? What flag should I choose? If I choose the flag from the Netherlands to get Dutch, I'll probably be confused by a whole bunch of terminology since the dutch of different countries differs vastly more than the English from different countries. "People who complain about flags are nitpickers" is a perfect way to say "I grew up in a gigantic monoculture where you can drive 5 hours in any direction without encountering a different language, if you ignore the natives"
- Insanity 5y ago
  Can't say I recall a moment of really being confused by the terminology used in NL vs BE. But I do agree, a Belgian flag means nothing in terms of language. The flag can be used but only as a prefix to the actual language in text (to visually filter quickly).
- brightball 5y ago
  If Dutch, German and French were supported languages on the site I imagine that flags of the Netherlands, Germany and France would be representing the language selection. As a US citizen I often visit sites that use a British flag to represent English. I don’t bristle because there’s not a US flag or question whether the US flag should also be referencing Spanish. It’s just a detail to draw your eye that otherwise holds no importance once that is accomplished.
  - kmorgh 5y ago
    Except Belgian "Dutch" is called Flemish. And is different enough from the other Dutch to warrant its own i18n. Belgium is an exceptional case but I'm sure you can find more.
    - galgalesh 5y ago
      As an example: "weerhouden" in Flemish means "to be included", while in Netherlands' Dutch it means "to be excluded". Or take "poepen" which means "to have sex" or "to take a shit" depending on which country you are in. I frequently have to ask my friends from the Netherlands to clarify something because, even though I hear which word they're using, I have no idea what they mean because the words mean something different or are just never used that way in Flemish.
dheera 5y ago
With flags you also have the issue of how to represent politically disputed regions e.g. Taiwan even when the languages used locally are pretty clear-cut. In the specific case of Taiwan, if you want to maintain good business relations with normal civilians on both sides of the straits you need to represent Taiwan as a state to Mainland China IPs and represent it as a country to Taiwanese IPs and most of the rest of the world. I'm not advocating any particular political view, this is just the technological fuss you have to go through to maximize the number of happy customers. So sometimes it's much easier to just forget the flags, state the language and currency directly as text, and skirt around these issues. As for language selection, I really don't think it's necessary to beautify it UI-wise. Pick based on the user's Accept-Language header and 99.99% of the time you'll present it exactly as the user wanted without them having to select anything. You can then implement a text-only language selector somewhere in a less conspicuous place, such as the footer, than polluting your navigation header.
- temp12913231 5y ago
anyfoo 5y ago
As someone who grew up multilingually in Europe but now lives in the US and works for a US company (which seems to get localization right), I have the impression you don't really know the confusion and difficulties that arise from what you are saying. To explain, let's turn it around. Assuming you also live in the US, imagine a EU company would make the following assumptions that are common (to the point of feeling entirely "natural") in lots of European countries, but wrong in the US, and think about how that could impede you in varying business situations: * There is only one time zone in a given country. * VAT and other sales taxes are the same over the whole country (and therefore just included in the display price). * Every debit card, credit card etc. has a PIN, and a common API to the bank for card/bank-specific verification. * Every bank account is identified by IBAN, even across countries. Wiring money is always free. * Decimal separator is universally "," and grouping is ".". (Bonus: Let's instead be in an Asian country where it's common to group digits by 4 instead of 3.) * Dates are always either in order "DD MM YYYY" or ISO YYYY-MM-DD. In the case the year is omitted, "DD MM" is assumed and no clarification is ever made. Your appointment is 4.5., thanks for doing business with us! Sincerely yours, noreply@example.com. * Car-related business: You have to be at least 18 to drive a car (and have spent the equivalent of thousands of dollars and many hours of mandatory theoretical and practical training). It is illegal to drive a car more than 2 years without a thorough inspection that forces you to fix even minor things (Autobahn speeds are dangerous), so old cars are uncommon. There are special enthusiast registrations for so called "oldtimers", but that still requires extra maintenance. * Gastronomy-related: But you're allowed to drink beer at 16 (was at least the case when I was that age), anything else 18. * You have to use/publish your real name, address, and other information mandatorily in a lot more situations (e.g. when hosting a website of any kind--imagine a business enforcing that for all customers). You may find that if you want to do business internationally at all, you have to start caring about those things.
- brightball 5y ago
  I’m very familiar with it after working for a company which does a tremendous amount of business in Europe. Our European office, based in the Netherlands, just wanted to use some Google translate proxy service rather than properly internationalize anything. If anything, I cared a lot more about getting it right than anyone else but it is a lot of work. My point is that with all of the work a company has to put in to even make a proper language choice available, complaining about flags is literally just finding a reason to be bothered. It’s like somebody built you a house just how you wanted it, but you latched onto the color of the front door to complain. So yes, 100%…if flags make your site look better just use flags and ignore the noise. If you want to do it a different way, do that. You’re investing the time to get it right, you don’t have time to deal with petty complaints about the selection box.

capableweb 5y ago

> Plus, when the language codes include a country it’s a natural UI decision. Un-natural UI decision then if a language can exists in more than one country, and one country can have many languages?

galgalesh 5y ago

Yeah, just use flags and confuse the fuck out of multilingual countries. Belgium has Dutch, German and French as official languages. So what would a Belgian flag mean? What flag should I choose? If I choose the flag from the Netherlands to get Dutch, I'll probably be confused by a whole bunch of terminology since the dutch of different countries differs vastly more than the English from different countries. "People who complain about flags are nitpickers" is a perfect way to say "I grew up in a gigantic monoculture where you can drive 5 hours in any direction without encountering a different language, if you ignore the natives"

Insanity 5y ago
Can't say I recall a moment of really being confused by the terminology used in NL vs BE. But I do agree, a Belgian flag means nothing in terms of language. The flag can be used but only as a prefix to the actual language in text (to visually filter quickly).
brightball 5y ago
If Dutch, German and French were supported languages on the site I imagine that flags of the Netherlands, Germany and France would be representing the language selection. As a US citizen I often visit sites that use a British flag to represent English. I don’t bristle because there’s not a US flag or question whether the US flag should also be referencing Spanish. It’s just a detail to draw your eye that otherwise holds no importance once that is accomplished.
- kmorgh 5y ago
  Except Belgian "Dutch" is called Flemish. And is different enough from the other Dutch to warrant its own i18n. Belgium is an exceptional case but I'm sure you can find more.
  - galgalesh 5y ago
    As an example: "weerhouden" in Flemish means "to be included", while in Netherlands' Dutch it means "to be excluded". Or take "poepen" which means "to have sex" or "to take a shit" depending on which country you are in. I frequently have to ask my friends from the Netherlands to clarify something because, even though I hear which word they're using, I have no idea what they mean because the words mean something different or are just never used that way in Flemish.

dheera 5y ago

With flags you also have the issue of how to represent politically disputed regions e.g. Taiwan even when the languages used locally are pretty clear-cut. In the specific case of Taiwan, if you want to maintain good business relations with normal civilians on both sides of the straits you need to represent Taiwan as a state to Mainland China IPs and represent it as a country to Taiwanese IPs and most of the rest of the world. I'm not advocating any particular political view, this is just the technological fuss you have to go through to maximize the number of happy customers. So sometimes it's much easier to just forget the flags, state the language and currency directly as text, and skirt around these issues. As for language selection, I really don't think it's necessary to beautify it UI-wise. Pick based on the user's Accept-Language header and 99.99% of the time you'll present it exactly as the user wanted without them having to select anything. You can then implement a text-only language selector somewhere in a less conspicuous place, such as the footer, than polluting your navigation header.

temp12913231 5y ago

anyfoo 5y ago

As someone who grew up multilingually in Europe but now lives in the US and works for a US company (which seems to get localization right), I have the impression you don't really know the confusion and difficulties that arise from what you are saying. To explain, let's turn it around. Assuming you also live in the US, imagine a EU company would make the following assumptions that are common (to the point of feeling entirely "natural") in lots of European countries, but wrong in the US, and think about how that could impede you in varying business situations: * There is only one time zone in a given country. * VAT and other sales taxes are the same over the whole country (and therefore just included in the display price). * Every debit card, credit card etc. has a PIN, and a common API to the bank for card/bank-specific verification. * Every bank account is identified by IBAN, even across countries. Wiring money is always free. * Decimal separator is universally "," and grouping is ".". (Bonus: Let's instead be in an Asian country where it's common to group digits by 4 instead of 3.) * Dates are always either in order "DD MM YYYY" or ISO YYYY-MM-DD. In the case the year is omitted, "DD MM" is assumed and no clarification is ever made. Your appointment is 4.5., thanks for doing business with us! Sincerely yours, noreply@example.com. * Car-related business: You have to be at least 18 to drive a car (and have spent the equivalent of thousands of dollars and many hours of mandatory theoretical and practical training). It is illegal to drive a car more than 2 years without a thorough inspection that forces you to fix even minor things (Autobahn speeds are dangerous), so old cars are uncommon. There are special enthusiast registrations for so called "oldtimers", but that still requires extra maintenance. * Gastronomy-related: But you're allowed to drink beer at 16 (was at least the case when I was that age), anything else 18. * You have to use/publish your real name, address, and other information mandatorily in a lot more situations (e.g. when hosting a website of any kind--imagine a business enforcing that for all customers). You may find that if you want to do business internationally at all, you have to start caring about those things.

brightball 5y ago
I’m very familiar with it after working for a company which does a tremendous amount of business in Europe. Our European office, based in the Netherlands, just wanted to use some Google translate proxy service rather than properly internationalize anything. If anything, I cared a lot more about getting it right than anyone else but it is a lot of work. My point is that with all of the work a company has to put in to even make a proper language choice available, complaining about flags is literally just finding a reason to be bothered. It’s like somebody built you a house just how you wanted it, but you latched onto the color of the front door to complain. So yes, 100%…if flags make your site look better just use flags and ignore the noise. If you want to do it a different way, do that. You’re investing the time to get it right, you don’t have time to deal with petty complaints about the selection box.