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I've noticed growing incivility as well and it's a slow moving culture change that I think we're all going to really regret. I don't think it's caused by just o

by oramit 5y ago

I've noticed growing incivility as well and it's a slow moving culture change that I think we're all going to really regret. I don't think it's caused by just one thing and it has been brewing for a while but Covid just pushed it over the edge like so many other trends. Some ideas on the causes: - The fish rots from the head. Trump was elected in 2016 and he's an asshole. His whole schtick is to mock his opponents and never admit he was wrong. Hell, him being an asshole was a huge selling point to his base. If you elect that guy to the most powerful office in the land then it signals that being an asshole is acceptable. That sort of thing filters down into the culture at large. Politics isn't the only place you see this though, sociopathic behavior seems to be almost a requirement in big business. Where are people being rewarded for kindness and compassion? - Pandemic burnout. There are a lot of threads on HN about guarding your attention like a currency and I think other emotions work similarly. After more than 2 years of this I know my well of empathy is nearly bone dry. Most issues like some particular thing being out of stock, or slow service because of staffing don't bother me but every once in a while I get really angry at an inconvenience I would normally shrug off. Multiply this across society. - Being an asshole kind of works? This echoes my first idea but in a different way. All real decision making has been taken away from the people who actually interact with the public. Executives and managers who have the power to change things (like increase wages to bring more employees in) are insulated from the public. There are so many layers of indirection within corporate America that even if you have a legitimate grievance it can be an enormous pain to get it resolved and you have to be kind of a dick sometimes to fix things. So you end up with this situation where powerless employees are being yelled at by a powerless public. There are certainly more threads here but those are some ideas i've been toying with.

daveevad 5y ago
> The fish rots from the head. Trump was elected in 2016 and he's an asshole. His whole schtick is to mock his opponents and never admit he was wrong. Obama roasting Trump at the White House Correspondents likely contributed to his decision to run for President. I agree your points by the way, I just think the fire started prior to 2016.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  There's this idea of "punching down" and "punching up". I'm fairly sure that in 2012, Obama mocking Donald Trump was generally considered closer to "punching up" than "punching down" (whether that was really accurate depends a lot on the true state of Trump's financial affairs, but in general he projected a persona that involved being uber-wealthy, uber-famous and generally able to do whatever he wanted). By contrast, Trump's mocking of, variously, Mexican and central American migrants, the disabled, media reporters etc. is generally seen as "punching down". In our culture, those further up the ladder are generally expected to take a "punching" (i.e. mockery, jokes, satires, ridicule) from below in good stead. We generally expect them to not "punch down" at those less enabled by power and wealth.
  - kansface 5y ago
    How about we just not punch people in any direction?
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      I think that it is extremely important that our leaders, and to some extent even our idols, should be subject to satire and perhaps even mockery on occasion. That's what "punching" means in the context we're talking about.
  - daveevad 5y ago
    I'm having a hard time accepting that the President ever punches up. He's the most powerful person in the world and has the sole authority to authorize the use of U.S. nuclear weapons. The office enjoys the Bully Pulpit and it is valuable to have this arrangement in my opinion. At any rate, watch the clip if you haven't recently. https://youtu.be/n9mzJhvC-8E?t=574 https://youtu.be/n9mzJhvC-8E?t=574 It's pretty interesting actually, to me at least, that Obama roasts Biden pretty much just as well for his off-the-cuff remarks and age immediately after his digs at Trump, which are less derogatory than I had remembered.
    - 5y ago
ethbr0 5y ago
> All real decision making has been taken away from the people who actually interact with the public. Executives and managers who have the power to change things (like increase wages to bring more employees in) are insulated from the public. Had to scroll down a bit, because I knew this comment had to exist, but wholeheartedly agreed. Managers in customer-facing jobs don't (and can't!) manage customers anymore. They manage employees. Used to be, the manager was the one who would come out and say "Sir or madam, I have to ask that you hold your tone and speak more respectfully to our employees." And if the customer persisted, ban them from the business. That authority has been stripped from them, because it's complicated, requires capable and trained managers, and gets in the way of copying and pasting a franchise. Instead, corporate policy has been to raise the brand above its employees. If that burns out folks working there, they can be replaced.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  > Managers in customer-facing jobs don't (and can't!) manage customers anymore. They manage employees. They are managers so they do not have to be paid overtime if they work over 40 hours per week. The business owners/directors let the manager hire just enough people, but not at a wage that can afford reliable workers. So, the manager will be stuck covering for the people that do not show, and if something goes wrong, they serve as a nice “fall guy”.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  My wife used to work retail and yes, customers have definitely learned they can get their way by raising their voice, demanding to see a manager, and the manager will sheepishly do anything they can to mollify them. All consequence-free. And if they don’t get what they want, they can go berserk and trash the store—again, consequence-free. Store management can’t physically do anything to neutralize the threat. I can’t put my finger on it but something happened in the last 5 years or so, some change in the country’s moral North Star, that ushered in this era of consequence-free obnoxious behavior. It’s almost as if some leader embodied and emboldened this behavior and normalized it.

by oramit 5y ago

daveevad 5y ago

> The fish rots from the head. Trump was elected in 2016 and he's an asshole. His whole schtick is to mock his opponents and never admit he was wrong. Obama roasting Trump at the White House Correspondents likely contributed to his decision to run for President. I agree your points by the way, I just think the fire started prior to 2016.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
There's this idea of "punching down" and "punching up". I'm fairly sure that in 2012, Obama mocking Donald Trump was generally considered closer to "punching up" than "punching down" (whether that was really accurate depends a lot on the true state of Trump's financial affairs, but in general he projected a persona that involved being uber-wealthy, uber-famous and generally able to do whatever he wanted). By contrast, Trump's mocking of, variously, Mexican and central American migrants, the disabled, media reporters etc. is generally seen as "punching down". In our culture, those further up the ladder are generally expected to take a "punching" (i.e. mockery, jokes, satires, ridicule) from below in good stead. We generally expect them to not "punch down" at those less enabled by power and wealth.
- kansface 5y ago
  How about we just not punch people in any direction?
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    I think that it is extremely important that our leaders, and to some extent even our idols, should be subject to satire and perhaps even mockery on occasion. That's what "punching" means in the context we're talking about.
- daveevad 5y ago
  I'm having a hard time accepting that the President ever punches up. He's the most powerful person in the world and has the sole authority to authorize the use of U.S. nuclear weapons. The office enjoys the Bully Pulpit and it is valuable to have this arrangement in my opinion. At any rate, watch the clip if you haven't recently. https://youtu.be/n9mzJhvC-8E?t=574 https://youtu.be/n9mzJhvC-8E?t=574 It's pretty interesting actually, to me at least, that Obama roasts Biden pretty much just as well for his off-the-cuff remarks and age immediately after his digs at Trump, which are less derogatory than I had remembered.
  - 5y ago

ethbr0 5y ago

> All real decision making has been taken away from the people who actually interact with the public. Executives and managers who have the power to change things (like increase wages to bring more employees in) are insulated from the public. Had to scroll down a bit, because I knew this comment had to exist, but wholeheartedly agreed. Managers in customer-facing jobs don't (and can't!) manage customers anymore. They manage employees. Used to be, the manager was the one who would come out and say "Sir or madam, I have to ask that you hold your tone and speak more respectfully to our employees." And if the customer persisted, ban them from the business. That authority has been stripped from them, because it's complicated, requires capable and trained managers, and gets in the way of copying and pasting a franchise. Instead, corporate policy has been to raise the brand above its employees. If that burns out folks working there, they can be replaced.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
> Managers in customer-facing jobs don't (and can't!) manage customers anymore. They manage employees. They are managers so they do not have to be paid overtime if they work over 40 hours per week. The business owners/directors let the manager hire just enough people, but not at a wage that can afford reliable workers. So, the manager will be stuck covering for the people that do not show, and if something goes wrong, they serve as a nice “fall guy”.
ryandrake 5y ago
My wife used to work retail and yes, customers have definitely learned they can get their way by raising their voice, demanding to see a manager, and the manager will sheepishly do anything they can to mollify them. All consequence-free. And if they don’t get what they want, they can go berserk and trash the store—again, consequence-free. Store management can’t physically do anything to neutralize the threat. I can’t put my finger on it but something happened in the last 5 years or so, some change in the country’s moral North Star, that ushered in this era of consequence-free obnoxious behavior. It’s almost as if some leader embodied and emboldened this behavior and normalized it.