4 ms·

I might be using the wrong terminology, what I'm talking about is removing e.g. `int x = ptr` where x is then not used in scope (more realistically, `(struct_

I might be using the wrong terminology, what I'm talking about is removing e.g. `int x = *ptr` where x is then not used in scope (more realistically, `(*struct_inst).member` shouldn't bother to load the other members of the struct). What you're doing sounds like removing a global it detects is never used, which I agree relies too much on UB and should not be done.

gpderetta 5y ago
Removing a load is visible behaviour if the load would have trapped for example. Everybody agrees that compilers should only do sane optimizations. Nobody agrees on which subset is sane.
- dooglius 5y ago
  That's fair, I'll concede that I make some implicit assumptions. But the magnitude of people who hit problems and accidentally hit UB should give a strong indication that a lot of things done now are not close to sane.
  - gpderetta 5y ago
    Lobbying the standard body to reduce the amount of UB in the C standard is a perfectly reasonable position. Requiring compilers to DWIM is not.
puffoflogic 5y ago
Aside from the possible trap ("segfault") mention in the sibling comment, the first example relies on absence of UB because with UB you could enumerate the contents of the stack to find where `x` is living, and discover it isn't there, contra the spec. Even allocating variables directly into registers and never onto the stack relies on UB.
- dooglius 5y ago
  Why is it UB to use registers to store variables? This seems like an implementation detail. The ISO C spec doesn't even have the word "stack" as far as ctrl-f can show me.
  - puffoflogic 5y ago
    > Why is it UB to use registers to store variables? It isn't; that sentence is even a type error. UB is not a property of compiler output. It's a property of compiler input. The use of registers to store variables between uses (when those variables never have their address taken) relies on the lack of any defined behavior which would allow the program to determine this is being done. The fact you can't find this in the spec is precisely because it is not defined.
  - gpderetta 5y ago
    If any object can potentially be reached by forging pointers or enumerating all memory locations, you can't even keep local variables in registers around potential stores to unknown pointers (or ever, in a multithreaded program).

I might be using the wrong terminology, what I'm talking about is removing e.g. `int x = *ptr` where x is then not used in scope (more realistically, `(*struct_

gpderetta 5y ago

Removing a load is visible behaviour if the load would have trapped for example. Everybody agrees that compilers should only do sane optimizations. Nobody agrees on which subset is sane.

dooglius 5y ago
That's fair, I'll concede that I make some implicit assumptions. But the magnitude of people who hit problems and accidentally hit UB should give a strong indication that a lot of things done now are not close to sane.
- gpderetta 5y ago
  Lobbying the standard body to reduce the amount of UB in the C standard is a perfectly reasonable position. Requiring compilers to DWIM is not.

puffoflogic 5y ago

Aside from the possible trap ("segfault") mention in the sibling comment, the first example relies on absence of UB because with UB you could enumerate the contents of the stack to find where `x` is living, and discover it isn't there, contra the spec. Even allocating variables directly into registers and never onto the stack relies on UB.

dooglius 5y ago
Why is it UB to use registers to store variables? This seems like an implementation detail. The ISO C spec doesn't even have the word "stack" as far as ctrl-f can show me.
- puffoflogic 5y ago
  > Why is it UB to use registers to store variables? It isn't; that sentence is even a type error. UB is not a property of compiler output. It's a property of compiler input. The use of registers to store variables between uses (when those variables never have their address taken) relies on the lack of any defined behavior which would allow the program to determine this is being done. The fact you can't find this in the spec is precisely because it is not defined.
- gpderetta 5y ago
  If any object can potentially be reached by forging pointers or enumerating all memory locations, you can't even keep local variables in registers around potential stores to unknown pointers (or ever, in a multithreaded program).