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Wow, it really takes an insane amount of money these days to make a leading edge fab. I really hope they can pull this off and it doesn't end up like Foxconn in

Wow, it really takes an insane amount of money these days to make a leading edge fab. I really hope they can pull this off and it doesn't end up like Foxconn in Wisconsin...

tyleo 5y ago
I was thinking that. Im a former Ohioan and most of my family is still here. I have much more faith in Intel than in Foxconn. My understanding is that Foxconn had a shoddy track record of building out locations outside of their home country.
- bushbaba 5y ago
  Foxconn is hard, repetitive manual labor. chip fab isn’t nearly as bad of work. Americans don’t want crappy jobs which is why foxcon had issues.
  - beambot 5y ago
    "TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash" - https://www.eetimes.com/tsmcs-arizona-culture-clash/ https://www.eetimes.com/tsmcs-arizona-culture-clash/ > Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. (TSMC) faces challenges managing employees at its new fab in Arizona who are unaccustomed to the long work hours and management culture that in Taiwan have helped make the company the world’s largest chip foundry.
    - nurspouse 5y ago
      Having worked at Intel, I can tell you that the process side of Intel has similar work hours. This, in particular, rings true for Intel: > Different positions may have different requirements, so work hours vary, according to the principal engineer. “An equipment engineer might start work at 8 o’clock in the morning and leave around 9 o’clock at night, but is it normal? This may happen two or three days a week. On a production line, the equipment must be maintained. > “If you are a process engineer, it will be more stable. Maybe you can start work at 8:30 a.m.and leave before 7:30 p.m. If there are some urgent matters, you may have to stay later.” At Intel, process engineers had to attend a daily meeting at 7:40am (mandatory), and would rarely leave before 6pm (meetings scheduled at 5 or 6pm were common). I sometimes would wander around in that part of the building at 7pm and a significant fraction of cubicles would be filled. Almost all Intel process engineers have PhDs.
      - Aperocky 5y ago
        How much are Intel process engineers paid to withstand that?
        nwiswell 5y ago
        Very well for Oregon. But it's a little more nuanced than pay for two reasons. 1) Intel is a little like proto-Amazon. There is a preference for hiring people directly out of grad school and inducting them into the cult while they are still naive, so that's just what they come to expect for work-life balance. 2) The whole semiconductor industry is like this, and particularly so for production fabs. If you have domain expertise, you have no alternative work-life balance choice short of a career change.
        nurspouse 5y ago
        > There is a preference for hiring people directly out of grad school and inducting them into the cult while they are still naive, so that's just what they come to expect for work-life balance. Heh. I once interviewed for an internal SW position that dealt with fab automation. I openly told them in the interview that I knew about their work culture and that was of great concern to me. Interviewer: I know what you mean, and I promise the org has been working to improve the conditions. It's not as bad as it was. Me: Great! However, for me the comparison isn't the "old you" but the rest of Intel. <Back and forth> Interviewer: Look, you're not going to get a 40 hour/week job anywhere in the SW industry! Me: Umm... All my SW engineer roles at Intel were 40 hour/week jobs. I haven't worked on weekends in years. <Proceed to list friends at big name SW companies who also don't work more than 40 hours/week> Interviewer: OK. We normally interview people straight out of college who don't know any better. Needless to say, I didn't take that job.
        selimthegrim 5y ago
        When I was a green badge SWE at Intel all my (blue badge) coworkers were 15-20 years older than me. No one my age stuck around.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - reducesuffering 5y ago
      Similarly, there's a Netflix movie by Obama's production company called American Factory that dealt with the culture clash of a Chinese glass factory in America: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/american_factory https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/american_factory
  - swagasaurus-rex 5y ago
    There are plenty of Americans who are okay with 60-80 hours of even repetitive manual labor. I know a few who work for shipping companies. What Americans don't want are jobs that pay less and don't offer 1.5x overtime. Unlike shipping, foxconn jobs can be done in a place with a cheaper cost of living. America isn't competitive in low margin businesses because poor people need to pay rent which is just higher in the US.

Wow, it really takes an insane amount of money these days to make a leading edge fab. I really hope they can pull this off and it doesn't end up like Foxconn in Wisconsin...

tyleo 5y ago

I was thinking that. Im a former Ohioan and most of my family is still here. I have much more faith in Intel than in Foxconn. My understanding is that Foxconn had a shoddy track record of building out locations outside of their home country.

bushbaba 5y ago
Foxconn is hard, repetitive manual labor. chip fab isn’t nearly as bad of work. Americans don’t want crappy jobs which is why foxcon had issues.
- beambot 5y ago
  "TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash" - https://www.eetimes.com/tsmcs-arizona-culture-clash/ https://www.eetimes.com/tsmcs-arizona-culture-clash/ > Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. (TSMC) faces challenges managing employees at its new fab in Arizona who are unaccustomed to the long work hours and management culture that in Taiwan have helped make the company the world’s largest chip foundry.
  - nurspouse 5y ago
    Having worked at Intel, I can tell you that the process side of Intel has similar work hours. This, in particular, rings true for Intel: > Different positions may have different requirements, so work hours vary, according to the principal engineer. “An equipment engineer might start work at 8 o’clock in the morning and leave around 9 o’clock at night, but is it normal? This may happen two or three days a week. On a production line, the equipment must be maintained. > “If you are a process engineer, it will be more stable. Maybe you can start work at 8:30 a.m.and leave before 7:30 p.m. If there are some urgent matters, you may have to stay later.” At Intel, process engineers had to attend a daily meeting at 7:40am (mandatory), and would rarely leave before 6pm (meetings scheduled at 5 or 6pm were common). I sometimes would wander around in that part of the building at 7pm and a significant fraction of cubicles would be filled. Almost all Intel process engineers have PhDs.
    - Aperocky 5y ago
      How much are Intel process engineers paid to withstand that?
      - nwiswell 5y ago
        Very well for Oregon. But it's a little more nuanced than pay for two reasons. 1) Intel is a little like proto-Amazon. There is a preference for hiring people directly out of grad school and inducting them into the cult while they are still naive, so that's just what they come to expect for work-life balance. 2) The whole semiconductor industry is like this, and particularly so for production fabs. If you have domain expertise, you have no alternative work-life balance choice short of a career change.
        nurspouse 5y ago
        > There is a preference for hiring people directly out of grad school and inducting them into the cult while they are still naive, so that's just what they come to expect for work-life balance. Heh. I once interviewed for an internal SW position that dealt with fab automation. I openly told them in the interview that I knew about their work culture and that was of great concern to me. Interviewer: I know what you mean, and I promise the org has been working to improve the conditions. It's not as bad as it was. Me: Great! However, for me the comparison isn't the "old you" but the rest of Intel. <Back and forth> Interviewer: Look, you're not going to get a 40 hour/week job anywhere in the SW industry! Me: Umm... All my SW engineer roles at Intel were 40 hour/week jobs. I haven't worked on weekends in years. <Proceed to list friends at big name SW companies who also don't work more than 40 hours/week> Interviewer: OK. We normally interview people straight out of college who don't know any better. Needless to say, I didn't take that job.
        selimthegrim 5y ago
        When I was a green badge SWE at Intel all my (blue badge) coworkers were 15-20 years older than me. No one my age stuck around.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - reducesuffering 5y ago
    Similarly, there's a Netflix movie by Obama's production company called American Factory that dealt with the culture clash of a Chinese glass factory in America: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/american_factory https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/american_factory
- swagasaurus-rex 5y ago
  There are plenty of Americans who are okay with 60-80 hours of even repetitive manual labor. I know a few who work for shipping companies. What Americans don't want are jobs that pay less and don't offer 1.5x overtime. Unlike shipping, foxconn jobs can be done in a place with a cheaper cost of living. America isn't competitive in low margin businesses because poor people need to pay rent which is just higher in the US.