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I have played Devil's Advocate for this statue numerous times over the last year or so. My understanding of Roosevelt is that he was not a racist, and that the

I have played Devil's Advocate for this statue numerous times over the last year or so. My understanding of Roosevelt is that he was not a racist, and that the statue depicts an incredibly important aspect of his great life. He was a blue blood Ivy League elite from New York, but he was drawn to nature and working class challenges and that largely defined him. Before being president he tried to live in Dakota Territory but for the most part failed. However, he experienced the difficulties and challenges of living in the "wild" which was something not necessary for a young wealthy man from one of New York's most respected families. Then many years later he took a very dangerous and ill advised expedition to the Amazon in collaboration with the museum from where the statue was later placed. He learned a lot on that expedition, and we can learn from the record of his experiences there. Without his difficult and challenging experiences in Dakota, Cuba, Amazon, etc, Roosevelt would have just been an ordinary Ivy League millionaire learning about common people and exotic lands from books in his Oyster Bay library. Instead he put himself out there due to whatever motivations he had, and it put him in touch with working people and nature, and these experienced directly impacted his career. He was considered a leader in worker's rights and natural preservation. His presidency prioritized conservation and established the national parks. As president he met with African American leaders even though his decision to host such people in the White House was incredibly unpopular in the racist press. He had survived Dakota and San Juan Hill, so he was not afraid to be an advocate and ruffle feathers. In light of him not being an proponent of racism, I think the statue can fairly be interpreted as Roosevelt's greatness coming in large part due to his association with people of different races and classes. As a Progressive, he moves in the right direction thanks to his association with the others depicted in the statue. Of course the statue is more than a little crude in depicting this since it was made by people who didn't really experience Roosevelt's life or maybe care to consider it. I think keeping the statue in the public space can offer us the opportunity to discuss and debate its meaning, and Roosevelt's importance to the museum and to the United States. However, that opportunity is now gone since the statue will be moved into hiding.

gambiting 5y ago
Looking at the picture someone else posted - knowing almost nothing about Roosevelt, it just looks like a dude on a horse with a native american + uhm....a black man following in tow. Almost like he owns them both. >>I think the statue can fairly be interpreted as Roosevelt's greatness coming in large part due to his association with people of different races and classes I don't see that at all. If it was maybe a stute where(for example) he is sitting down and they are both behind him holding him by the shoulder - sure. As-is the statue looks like he's above them. Again, this is just how I felt seeing it for the first time. Maybe reading up on Roosevelt I'd see it differently, but I imagine lots of people coming into the Natural History museum don't know the details and that's the first thing they see. I'm generally against removal of any and all statues, but this one just feels sour in my mouth for some reason.
- eschulz 5y ago
  I see what you're saying. Roosevelt was an odd person, and that lead him to do many things that I think were instrumental to his greatness. As for policy for the US, was a progressive and all about moving forward. Physically speaking, he had the jitters and could not keep still. Moving and being on a horse were normal for him. I think the statue was made by a largely colonial and white-dominated society, but I think it can help the inquisitive mind realize that Roosevelt's progressive nature came from his unique life experiences. How does a white man born into privilege and money become a leader for the working class and nature preservation? It's through his experiences, and we should all discuss them. Addendum: this image of Roosevelt at Harvard is often used when discussing his inability to sit still https://i.imgur.com/qPO2H74.jpg https://i.imgur.com/qPO2H74.jpg. He can't wait for the picture to be done so he can go back to wrestling or whatever. He was constantly moving, and in my opinion he would not have become a noteworthy person had he not put himself in situations where he came into contact with people of different social status or races.
  - troyvit 5y ago
    I think that if somebody remade the statue with your point of view in mind it would look somewhat different. Maybe all three of them would be on foot for instance.
    - eschulz 5y ago
      Yeah I would have made it differently for sure. The statue's artist and promoters wanted it to be popular, and Roosevelt was a hero in part for his Rough Riders cavalry unit so I assumer they were trying to hit on that part of his life.
- AwaAwa 5y ago
  You know the name Roosevelt for the central man in the piece. How quickly would anyone know the name of the others in it? Your feeling 'sour', that stems from a place of ignorance into the artist & Roosevelt's life, is popular enough, that they are hiding the statue. This obsession with not 'feeling' wrong will destroy everything, until nothing remains of learned interpretation. I can see the future of Vonnegut's 'Harrison Bergeron' coming our way.
tptacek 5y ago
Nah. The sculpture is modeled after Verrocchio's Equestrian Statue of Bartolomeo Colleoni, which depicts a mercenary general renowned for the shrewd, ruthless application of violence. There is no plausible way to argue that Roosevelt's military successes were somehow bolstered by African and Native American people. (It's interesting to read technical critique of Fraser's sculpture; Verrochio's sculpture is one of the major artistic works of the Renaissance, and exceeds Fraser's Equestrian in apparently a bunch of ways. This is not one of Fraser's best-loved pieces.)
vanusa 5y ago
My understanding of Roosevelt is that he was not a racist, To be clear I don't see much point in making character judgements of people who lived generations in the past, and in in circumstances radically different from our own. That said, it may be helpful to keep in mind some of the basic facts of Roosevelt's attitudes towards non-whites, as attested by these easily findable quotes: “As a race and in the mass they are altogether inferior to the whites,” he confided to a friend in a 1906 letter. Ten years later, he told Senator Henry Cabot Lodge that “the great majority of Negroes in the South are wholly unfit for the suffrage” and that giving them voting rights could “reduce parts of the South to the level of Haiti.” Roosevelt also believed that Black men made poor soldiers. He denigrated the efforts of the buffalo soldiers who fought alongside his men at San Juan Hill during the Spanish-American War, falsely claiming that they ran away under fire. “Negro troops were shirkers in their duties and would only go as far as they were led by white officers,” he wrote. In reality, the buffalo soldiers served with distinction, and several men were officially recognized for their bravery. Twenty-six died on the slopes of San Juan Hill. ... “I don’t go so far as to think that the only good Indians are the dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every 10 are,” Roosevelt said during a January 1886 speech in New York. “And I shouldn’t like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownsville_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownsville_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawes_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawes_Act

gambiting 5y ago

Looking at the picture someone else posted - knowing almost nothing about Roosevelt, it just looks like a dude on a horse with a native american + uhm....a black man following in tow. Almost like he owns them both. >>I think the statue can fairly be interpreted as Roosevelt's greatness coming in large part due to his association with people of different races and classes I don't see that at all. If it was maybe a stute where(for example) he is sitting down and they are both behind him holding him by the shoulder - sure. As-is the statue looks like he's above them. Again, this is just how I felt seeing it for the first time. Maybe reading up on Roosevelt I'd see it differently, but I imagine lots of people coming into the Natural History museum don't know the details and that's the first thing they see. I'm generally against removal of any and all statues, but this one just feels sour in my mouth for some reason.

eschulz 5y ago
I see what you're saying. Roosevelt was an odd person, and that lead him to do many things that I think were instrumental to his greatness. As for policy for the US, was a progressive and all about moving forward. Physically speaking, he had the jitters and could not keep still. Moving and being on a horse were normal for him. I think the statue was made by a largely colonial and white-dominated society, but I think it can help the inquisitive mind realize that Roosevelt's progressive nature came from his unique life experiences. How does a white man born into privilege and money become a leader for the working class and nature preservation? It's through his experiences, and we should all discuss them. Addendum: this image of Roosevelt at Harvard is often used when discussing his inability to sit still https://i.imgur.com/qPO2H74.jpg https://i.imgur.com/qPO2H74.jpg. He can't wait for the picture to be done so he can go back to wrestling or whatever. He was constantly moving, and in my opinion he would not have become a noteworthy person had he not put himself in situations where he came into contact with people of different social status or races.
- troyvit 5y ago
  I think that if somebody remade the statue with your point of view in mind it would look somewhat different. Maybe all three of them would be on foot for instance.
  - eschulz 5y ago
    Yeah I would have made it differently for sure. The statue's artist and promoters wanted it to be popular, and Roosevelt was a hero in part for his Rough Riders cavalry unit so I assumer they were trying to hit on that part of his life.
AwaAwa 5y ago
You know the name Roosevelt for the central man in the piece. How quickly would anyone know the name of the others in it? Your feeling 'sour', that stems from a place of ignorance into the artist & Roosevelt's life, is popular enough, that they are hiding the statue. This obsession with not 'feeling' wrong will destroy everything, until nothing remains of learned interpretation. I can see the future of Vonnegut's 'Harrison Bergeron' coming our way.

tptacek 5y ago

Nah. The sculpture is modeled after Verrocchio's Equestrian Statue of Bartolomeo Colleoni, which depicts a mercenary general renowned for the shrewd, ruthless application of violence. There is no plausible way to argue that Roosevelt's military successes were somehow bolstered by African and Native American people. (It's interesting to read technical critique of Fraser's sculpture; Verrochio's sculpture is one of the major artistic works of the Renaissance, and exceeds Fraser's Equestrian in apparently a bunch of ways. This is not one of Fraser's best-loved pieces.)

vanusa 5y ago

My understanding of Roosevelt is that he was not a racist, To be clear I don't see much point in making character judgements of people who lived generations in the past, and in in circumstances radically different from our own. That said, it may be helpful to keep in mind some of the basic facts of Roosevelt's attitudes towards non-whites, as attested by these easily findable quotes: “As a race and in the mass they are altogether inferior to the whites,” he confided to a friend in a 1906 letter. Ten years later, he told Senator Henry Cabot Lodge that “the great majority of Negroes in the South are wholly unfit for the suffrage” and that giving them voting rights could “reduce parts of the South to the level of Haiti.” Roosevelt also believed that Black men made poor soldiers. He denigrated the efforts of the buffalo soldiers who fought alongside his men at San Juan Hill during the Spanish-American War, falsely claiming that they ran away under fire. “Negro troops were shirkers in their duties and would only go as far as they were led by white officers,” he wrote. In reality, the buffalo soldiers served with distinction, and several men were officially recognized for their bravery. Twenty-six died on the slopes of San Juan Hill. ... “I don’t go so far as to think that the only good Indians are the dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every 10 are,” Roosevelt said during a January 1886 speech in New York. “And I shouldn’t like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownsville_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownsville_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawes_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawes_Act