5 ms·

> The thinking was that it created too much of a relationship of subservience rather than equals participating in commerce, to be compatible with American ideal

by davemp 5y ago

> The thinking was that it created too much of a relationship of subservience rather than equals participating in commerce, to be compatible with American ideals of freedom. That's my feelings about tipping. The custom feels very classist. Depending on tips creates a social divide between service industries and their customers. I used to work for tips when I was growing up (~2010). My rate was about $15-20/hr which you just couldn't get as young teenager any other way. BUT, I had to force myself to be bubbly and make small talk or I'd make closer to $5-10/hr. The core service quality never changed--only how much I pleased/entertained my customers. I felt like the court fool or a beggar pleading for alms, so I eventually quit for a $10/hr job that I felt much better working throughout the rest of high school. The tipping experience did teach me the value of being personable, but I don't think the incentives need to be so severe.

bluGill 5y ago
You have just talked me into tips. I want a server who will entertain me while I'm waiting. There is a line of course, don't do too much, but a bit of make me feel better about it is worth paying extra for. Service with a good bubbly personality is well worth the extra cost in my opinion.
- davemp 5y ago
  This shows a disturbing lack of empathy. > I want a server who will entertain me while I'm waiting. Not everyone does--people are fickle. There's also a reason theaters don't use a pay-what-you-want model. Having your lively hood to depend on the whims of strangers is no way to operate.
  - bluGill 5y ago
    > Having your lively hood to depend on the whims of strangers is no way to operate. Your lively hood ALWAYS depends on the whims of strangers. It doesn't matter what you do, you depend on strangers to support you.
    - davemp 5y ago
      You're being disingenuous. The difference is how directly you depend on the whims on strangers and whether those whims include breaking a contract.
- door103 5y ago
  Personally I prefer to be around people who are friendly because they genuinely want to be rather than because I am paying them to fake it.
  - meowface 5y ago
    It's worse than even that. It's people essentially groveling or even degrading themselves so that maybe you'll voluntarily choose to pay them, desperately clinging onto the hope that you're not one of the people who simply never tips or only tips a pittance. It's one thing if someone's being friendly and entertaining because they're being paid a salary or ticket price to do so - like a magician or tour guide or something. That's still artificial and potentially forced and stilted, but at least it's a reasonable, tit-for-tat kind of artificiality. With tipping it feels not only artificial but patronizing, condescending, and servile. You're at the mercy of the capriciousness and cruelty of customers. Or, alternatively, in some cases inadvertently thrusting them into a position of guilt and obligation and pity. It's not that bad since the employee probably knows what they were signing up for before taking the job, and some can make a lot of money from it, but, overall, the whole thing just feels... weird.
twofornone 5y ago
>BUT, I had to force myself to be bubbly and make small talk or I'd make closer to $5-10/hr. The core service quality never changed--only how much I pleased/entertained my customers. I don't think this is something you can fault tips for. If anything it suggests that tips are working as intended, presumably without tips your employer would bake such expectations into your customer facing role anyway?
- davemp 5y ago
  What you're talking about is scaling pay with customer satisfaction correct? The issue with depending on customer satisfaction is that human beings only have agency over themselves. No matter how polite and courteous an employee is they cannot force a customer to be satisfied or that said satisfaction should result in a nice tip. There are too many variables outside of your control such as the individual customers, shift schedule, volume of customers, the literal weather, political mood, etc. Some days I would go home with like $30 for the day's work despite behaving the same as my high earning days. You are not actually getting paid for your performance directly. On average you may make more, but if you're in a low income position you are not equipped to ride out the variance. You are being exposed to so much uncertainty and raw humanity that it affects your mentality. It's much harder to shake off making $60 for an entire weekend of work because customers were grumpy when you only have $250 in your bank account and your car payment is due. As an equation it may look equitable, but that equation is not reality. Businesses that support the tipping system are leaving their employees out in the proverbial wind. Instead business owners should assume the risk and actually manage their employees in an equitable fashion.

by davemp 5y ago

bluGill 5y ago

You have just talked me into tips. I want a server who will entertain me while I'm waiting. There is a line of course, don't do too much, but a bit of make me feel better about it is worth paying extra for. Service with a good bubbly personality is well worth the extra cost in my opinion.

davemp 5y ago
This shows a disturbing lack of empathy. > I want a server who will entertain me while I'm waiting. Not everyone does--people are fickle. There's also a reason theaters don't use a pay-what-you-want model. Having your lively hood to depend on the whims of strangers is no way to operate.
- bluGill 5y ago
  > Having your lively hood to depend on the whims of strangers is no way to operate. Your lively hood ALWAYS depends on the whims of strangers. It doesn't matter what you do, you depend on strangers to support you.
  - davemp 5y ago
    You're being disingenuous. The difference is how directly you depend on the whims on strangers and whether those whims include breaking a contract.
door103 5y ago
Personally I prefer to be around people who are friendly because they genuinely want to be rather than because I am paying them to fake it.
- meowface 5y ago
  It's worse than even that. It's people essentially groveling or even degrading themselves so that maybe you'll voluntarily choose to pay them, desperately clinging onto the hope that you're not one of the people who simply never tips or only tips a pittance. It's one thing if someone's being friendly and entertaining because they're being paid a salary or ticket price to do so - like a magician or tour guide or something. That's still artificial and potentially forced and stilted, but at least it's a reasonable, tit-for-tat kind of artificiality. With tipping it feels not only artificial but patronizing, condescending, and servile. You're at the mercy of the capriciousness and cruelty of customers. Or, alternatively, in some cases inadvertently thrusting them into a position of guilt and obligation and pity. It's not that bad since the employee probably knows what they were signing up for before taking the job, and some can make a lot of money from it, but, overall, the whole thing just feels... weird.

twofornone 5y ago

>BUT, I had to force myself to be bubbly and make small talk or I'd make closer to $5-10/hr. The core service quality never changed--only how much I pleased/entertained my customers. I don't think this is something you can fault tips for. If anything it suggests that tips are working as intended, presumably without tips your employer would bake such expectations into your customer facing role anyway?

davemp 5y ago
What you're talking about is scaling pay with customer satisfaction correct? The issue with depending on customer satisfaction is that human beings only have agency over themselves. No matter how polite and courteous an employee is they cannot force a customer to be satisfied or that said satisfaction should result in a nice tip. There are too many variables outside of your control such as the individual customers, shift schedule, volume of customers, the literal weather, political mood, etc. Some days I would go home with like $30 for the day's work despite behaving the same as my high earning days. You are not actually getting paid for your performance directly. On average you may make more, but if you're in a low income position you are not equipped to ride out the variance. You are being exposed to so much uncertainty and raw humanity that it affects your mentality. It's much harder to shake off making $60 for an entire weekend of work because customers were grumpy when you only have $250 in your bank account and your car payment is due. As an equation it may look equitable, but that equation is not reality. Businesses that support the tipping system are leaving their employees out in the proverbial wind. Instead business owners should assume the risk and actually manage their employees in an equitable fashion.