4 ms·

People are rightfully pointing out how ridiculous some of the overt substantive changes in that end poem are, but I was pretty amazed by how even the quite mino

People are rightfully pointing out how ridiculous some of the overt substantive changes in that end poem are, but I was pretty amazed by how even the quite minor changes totally alter the feel of the thing too. "Sit on a couch and look at a wall" to "Laying on the couch and looking at the wall" loses a lot somehow in a hard-to-pin-down way. It's almost an impressively efficient butchering

praptak 5y ago
Shorter phrases, shorter words and imperative sentences feel more powerful.
- dahak27 5y ago
  Good point yeah, I think the switch from indefinite to definite article also makes it feel less dissociated/bleak too somehow
swayvil 5y ago
>impressively efficient butchering He removes the testicles while leaving the valuable meat and fat entirely unblemished.
uberdru 5y ago
"Laying on the couch" is loaded with the kind of psychoanalytical implications that Bukowski hated. Which is a major reason why this feels so wrong. He would lie on the floor and listen to the radio.
- clsec 5y ago
  I've read a lot of his works and I could _never_ imagine Bukowski "laying on the couch and looking at the wall." Fortunately I have read only a few of his posthumous works. edit: changed very little to few
StrictDabbler 5y ago
"Sit" is from Middle English sitten, from Old English sittan, from Proto-West Germanic sittjan, from Proto-Germanic sitjaną, from Proto-Indo-European *sed- (“sit”). "Lay" is from Middle English lay, from Old French lai, from Latin laicus, from Ancient Greek λαϊκός (laïkós). In English, "sit" feels immediate and active where "lay" is passive and indirect. The distinction is both important and rooted in history. It is incredibly stupid that we still have editors trying to force English poetry into Latinate forms almost a millenium after the battle of Hastings and all the consequent Anglo/Norman jockeying for position.
- urubu 5y ago
  Not to be pedantic, but I think 'laying' has a different etymology, namely this one (quote from the OED): 'lay, v.1 General sense: To cause to lie. [OE. lęcgan = OFris. ledsa, lega, leia, OS. leggian (Du. leggen), OHG. lecken, legen (MHG., mod.G. legen), ON. legja (Sw. lägga, Da. lægge), Goth. (= OTeut.) lagjan, f. lag- ablaut-variant of OTeut. leg-: see lie v.' OE = Old English, OFris.= Old Frisian etc.
  - halpert 5y ago
    I think GPs “lay” may be like “lay person” which is not the use in the poem.
- cafard 5y ago
  "lay" as in "layman" or "lay preacher" does have the derivation you give. As a verb, "lay it down" has Germanic roots, e.g. "liegen". The Greek cognate seems to be "lexos", "bed". (All this from Skeat's etymological dictionary.)
- burnished 5y ago
  Can't comment about the roots of the words, but I agree with your assessment of those words. This is actually one of my favorite games to play with friends, taking a word and talking about it's connotations, or contrasting it with another similar word. Nothing super academic, just our own thoughts and feelings and examples of use.
Haneant 5y ago

praptak 5y ago

Shorter phrases, shorter words and imperative sentences feel more powerful.

dahak27 5y ago
Good point yeah, I think the switch from indefinite to definite article also makes it feel less dissociated/bleak too somehow

swayvil 5y ago

>impressively efficient butchering He removes the testicles while leaving the valuable meat and fat entirely unblemished.

uberdru 5y ago

"Laying on the couch" is loaded with the kind of psychoanalytical implications that Bukowski hated. Which is a major reason why this feels so wrong. He would lie on the floor and listen to the radio.

clsec 5y ago
I've read a lot of his works and I could _never_ imagine Bukowski "laying on the couch and looking at the wall." Fortunately I have read only a few of his posthumous works. edit: changed very little to few

StrictDabbler 5y ago

"Sit" is from Middle English sitten, from Old English sittan, from Proto-West Germanic sittjan, from Proto-Germanic sitjaną, from Proto-Indo-European *sed- (“sit”). "Lay" is from Middle English lay, from Old French lai, from Latin laicus, from Ancient Greek λαϊκός (laïkós). In English, "sit" feels immediate and active where "lay" is passive and indirect. The distinction is both important and rooted in history. It is incredibly stupid that we still have editors trying to force English poetry into Latinate forms almost a millenium after the battle of Hastings and all the consequent Anglo/Norman jockeying for position.

urubu 5y ago
Not to be pedantic, but I think 'laying' has a different etymology, namely this one (quote from the OED): 'lay, v.1 General sense: To cause to lie. [OE. lęcgan = OFris. ledsa, lega, leia, OS. leggian (Du. leggen), OHG. lecken, legen (MHG., mod.G. legen), ON. legja (Sw. lägga, Da. lægge), Goth. (= OTeut.) lagjan, f. lag- ablaut-variant of OTeut. leg-: see lie v.' OE = Old English, OFris.= Old Frisian etc.
- halpert 5y ago
  I think GPs “lay” may be like “lay person” which is not the use in the poem.
cafard 5y ago
"lay" as in "layman" or "lay preacher" does have the derivation you give. As a verb, "lay it down" has Germanic roots, e.g. "liegen". The Greek cognate seems to be "lexos", "bed". (All this from Skeat's etymological dictionary.)
burnished 5y ago
Can't comment about the roots of the words, but I agree with your assessment of those words. This is actually one of my favorite games to play with friends, taking a word and talking about it's connotations, or contrasting it with another similar word. Nothing super academic, just our own thoughts and feelings and examples of use.

Haneant 5y ago