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"Three times as many people are injured while walking in icy conditions in Sweden than while driving." Why not simply look at statistics like that, without "ge

"Three times as many people are injured while walking in icy conditions in Sweden than while driving." Why not simply look at statistics like that, without "gender hacking"? And how long have they been doing it, do they have updated statistics? Also severity of the injuries? What about the emergency doctors trying to reach patients on roads that are not cleared? What number of injuries are we talking about?

kwhitefoot 5y ago
They did look at the statistics and the statistics say women are more likely to be injured because they are more likely to walk. "An analysis of Sweden’s snow clearance practices showed that it disadvantaged women, who were more likely to walk, while employment districts where men predominantly worked were more likely to have streets plowed first." > What about the emergency doctors trying to reach patients on roads that are not cleared? Generally not a problem, snow is cleared from roads quite promptly all over Scandinavia. I've lived in Norway for nearly forty years and have never been able to call my employer saying that I can't get to work (22 km away) because of snow or ice. It has never even been a cause of me being late for work.
- Consultant32452 5y ago
  I'm confused by these competing narratives: > Plow the sidewalks first because of the social preference to protect women > Emergency services are not impacted because snow is cleared from the roads promptly Either we sacrificed men/drivers in favor of women/walkers or we just did more snow clearing.
  - b112 5y ago
    Probably, people cleared the roads first (here in Canada this is at 4am typically, and again and again if it is still snowing). Then, as clearing the roads throws snow large volumes of and such everywhere, later the sidewalk clearers show up. So now they probably just had the sidewalk clearers start work earlier, and clean an extra time, problem seemingly solved.
    - Consultant32452 5y ago
      That seems like a very reasonable interpretation. I would add that they had. preference for making the roads safe because the roads have thousand pound death machines, and later increased the safety actions to improve the lives of people who might fall down. It was very weird to toss gender in, but this is the 2020s I guess.
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    The video said cars are better able to drive on a small amount of snow, so maybe they rely on that for ambulances etc.
- gambiting 5y ago
  >>I've lived in Norway for nearly forty years and have never been able to call my employer saying that I can't get to work (22 km away) because of snow or ice. It has never even been a cause of me being late for work. That's how it should be really. Having lived in some really cold countries, people just....go about with their day. Snow on the road? Have winter tyres and/or chains, it's really not a big deal. Now I live in the UK and it's hilarious(and sad) to see offices, schools and kindergadens close when there is FROST on the road - not even snow, just the temperatures are below zero, things are a bit frozen, so my kindergarden calls me up not to come in today because they determined it's too dangerous for parents to drive in. Like....what??? I know everyone in this country uses summer tyres all year round but sheesh, just....get a grip(pun not intended). When there is actual snow on the road(and I mean like....1 inch of it) it's like apocalypse hit, police advise people not to leave their homes, no one knows how to drive(or if they do they inevitably drive 3mph, even thought he road has been cleared and salted)......I know it's "unusual", but it's not like Egypt where they see snow once in 20 years - it does snow pretty much every year for a few days.
  - jdmoreira 5y ago
    We once flew from Stockholm to London to conduct some user interviews. And it was snowing in London and it was exactly like you described. Half our interviews got cancelled, everyone was panicking because of the weather, chaos everywhere. We just laugh!
  - pmyteh 5y ago
    Yeah, there's a lot of adaptation to local norms. We don't have much snow-clearing equipment because it's so rarely needed (and no-one wants to pay taxes to have it just on the off-chance). Scotland does better because they have more. We have a similar issue with heat-related rail buckling closing lines in the summer. If you run a railway in Morocco it's a lot hotter and you never close lines for that reason - but that's because the tension of the rails there is adjusted for hotter temperatures. A hard frost would cause Moroccan rails to fracture as they shrank, while ours remain within tolerance.
  - feintruled 5y ago
    Well, counterpoint, is it really worth putting in place all the infrastructure and planning for the relatively few days it's frosty? Maybe it's more economical to just take the hit of the days off.
taurusnoises 5y ago
Why should they not look at the gender component?
- lmm 5y ago
  Because it's a needlessly divisive way to frame things? If you make something women-vs-men, you're nudging people to think of it in a zero-sum, us-against-them way. If you talk about fairness for everyone, you encourage those who are currently better off to support it, because you're reassuring them that if and when they're worse off, they will also be supported.
  - taurusnoises 5y ago
    Needlessly divisive?? It's literally one of the central issues guiding the project. Also, your last point makes no sense. Reassuring people that they'll be supported down the line as well, is a good thing.
    - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
      Why does it matter if it is women and not men slipping on the sideways, and not just people? What if they now would find more men than women get injured because the roads are not cleared fast enough? Would they then reverse their decision? Or would women somehow still count more? Or what if the initial "analysis" would have found more people slipping on the sidewalks, but most of them being men? Also the interpretation that it is "discrimination of women" seems dubious. After all, they are probably walking because they don't have to get to work, like the men (including the snowplough drivers). Then you are down to subjective values (not having to work vs slipping on ice and so on). Somehow people have forgotten that working is not an end in itself, but usually a means to support a family.
      - taurusnoises 5y ago
        Oh boy... smh
Filligree 5y ago
> Why not simply look at statistics like that, without "gender hacking"? And how long have they been doing it, do they have updated statistics? Also severity of the injuries? What about the emergency doctors trying to reach patients on roads that are not cleared? What number of injuries are we talking about? The injuries are generally bruises. Sprains, at worst. Slipping and falling is painful, but unless you're old and frail you're very unlikely to crack or break anything.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  I meant injuries compared to car accidents. Hopefully car accidents are not that common, nevertheless, I'd like to see a less superficial analysis.

kwhitefoot 5y ago

They did look at the statistics and the statistics say women are more likely to be injured because they are more likely to walk. "An analysis of Sweden’s snow clearance practices showed that it disadvantaged women, who were more likely to walk, while employment districts where men predominantly worked were more likely to have streets plowed first." > What about the emergency doctors trying to reach patients on roads that are not cleared? Generally not a problem, snow is cleared from roads quite promptly all over Scandinavia. I've lived in Norway for nearly forty years and have never been able to call my employer saying that I can't get to work (22 km away) because of snow or ice. It has never even been a cause of me being late for work.

Consultant32452 5y ago
I'm confused by these competing narratives: > Plow the sidewalks first because of the social preference to protect women > Emergency services are not impacted because snow is cleared from the roads promptly Either we sacrificed men/drivers in favor of women/walkers or we just did more snow clearing.
- b112 5y ago
  Probably, people cleared the roads first (here in Canada this is at 4am typically, and again and again if it is still snowing). Then, as clearing the roads throws snow large volumes of and such everywhere, later the sidewalk clearers show up. So now they probably just had the sidewalk clearers start work earlier, and clean an extra time, problem seemingly solved.
  - Consultant32452 5y ago
    That seems like a very reasonable interpretation. I would add that they had. preference for making the roads safe because the roads have thousand pound death machines, and later increased the safety actions to improve the lives of people who might fall down. It was very weird to toss gender in, but this is the 2020s I guess.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  The video said cars are better able to drive on a small amount of snow, so maybe they rely on that for ambulances etc.
gambiting 5y ago
>>I've lived in Norway for nearly forty years and have never been able to call my employer saying that I can't get to work (22 km away) because of snow or ice. It has never even been a cause of me being late for work. That's how it should be really. Having lived in some really cold countries, people just....go about with their day. Snow on the road? Have winter tyres and/or chains, it's really not a big deal. Now I live in the UK and it's hilarious(and sad) to see offices, schools and kindergadens close when there is FROST on the road - not even snow, just the temperatures are below zero, things are a bit frozen, so my kindergarden calls me up not to come in today because they determined it's too dangerous for parents to drive in. Like....what??? I know everyone in this country uses summer tyres all year round but sheesh, just....get a grip(pun not intended). When there is actual snow on the road(and I mean like....1 inch of it) it's like apocalypse hit, police advise people not to leave their homes, no one knows how to drive(or if they do they inevitably drive 3mph, even thought he road has been cleared and salted)......I know it's "unusual", but it's not like Egypt where they see snow once in 20 years - it does snow pretty much every year for a few days.
- jdmoreira 5y ago
  We once flew from Stockholm to London to conduct some user interviews. And it was snowing in London and it was exactly like you described. Half our interviews got cancelled, everyone was panicking because of the weather, chaos everywhere. We just laugh!
- pmyteh 5y ago
  Yeah, there's a lot of adaptation to local norms. We don't have much snow-clearing equipment because it's so rarely needed (and no-one wants to pay taxes to have it just on the off-chance). Scotland does better because they have more. We have a similar issue with heat-related rail buckling closing lines in the summer. If you run a railway in Morocco it's a lot hotter and you never close lines for that reason - but that's because the tension of the rails there is adjusted for hotter temperatures. A hard frost would cause Moroccan rails to fracture as they shrank, while ours remain within tolerance.
- feintruled 5y ago
  Well, counterpoint, is it really worth putting in place all the infrastructure and planning for the relatively few days it's frosty? Maybe it's more economical to just take the hit of the days off.

taurusnoises 5y ago

Why should they not look at the gender component?

lmm 5y ago
Because it's a needlessly divisive way to frame things? If you make something women-vs-men, you're nudging people to think of it in a zero-sum, us-against-them way. If you talk about fairness for everyone, you encourage those who are currently better off to support it, because you're reassuring them that if and when they're worse off, they will also be supported.
- taurusnoises 5y ago
  Needlessly divisive?? It's literally one of the central issues guiding the project. Also, your last point makes no sense. Reassuring people that they'll be supported down the line as well, is a good thing.
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    Why does it matter if it is women and not men slipping on the sideways, and not just people? What if they now would find more men than women get injured because the roads are not cleared fast enough? Would they then reverse their decision? Or would women somehow still count more? Or what if the initial "analysis" would have found more people slipping on the sidewalks, but most of them being men? Also the interpretation that it is "discrimination of women" seems dubious. After all, they are probably walking because they don't have to get to work, like the men (including the snowplough drivers). Then you are down to subjective values (not having to work vs slipping on ice and so on). Somehow people have forgotten that working is not an end in itself, but usually a means to support a family.
    - taurusnoises 5y ago
      Oh boy... smh

Filligree 5y ago

> Why not simply look at statistics like that, without "gender hacking"? And how long have they been doing it, do they have updated statistics? Also severity of the injuries? What about the emergency doctors trying to reach patients on roads that are not cleared? What number of injuries are we talking about? The injuries are generally bruises. Sprains, at worst. Slipping and falling is painful, but unless you're old and frail you're very unlikely to crack or break anything.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
I meant injuries compared to car accidents. Hopefully car accidents are not that common, nevertheless, I'd like to see a less superficial analysis.