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The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)
- bryanrasmussen 5y agocould maybe considered similar to what Griswold https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rufus_Wilmot_Griswold https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rufus_Wilmot_Griswold did to Poe.
- dmitriid 5y agoThat example at the end is just so cringeworthy. The editor deserves to be dragged through the mud for basically re-writing the entire work.
- masswerk 5y agoWhile word replacements and omissions are bad enough, I totally fail to understand why anyone would have thought that these meandering additions were a good thing? How is this even editing? Edit: While substitutions and what you do, when your Mom sees you writing a piece and points at a word, asking, if you maybe could do without it, are a not so much a necessary thing, the writer of this comment doesn't fully understand how this is the professional accomplishment that it is. Last Christmas, I didn't go skiing. How is this even editing? ;-)
- akudha 5y agoIt never ceases to amaze me that people think they can get away with very obvious stuff, like this editor for example. Bukowski is not some unknown author - he has a good following. Did this editor really think nobody would notice? That nobody would get pissed and complain? I just don’t get it
- env123 5y agoThe title is enough of a hint
- toyg 5y agoThere is clearly a pathological element in such an operation, whether it was by Martin or someone else. Inserting yourself in the work of somebody else can be a power move, or a subconscious desire to get noticed - like a serial killer leaving signature clues. Or it could be a misguided commercial consideration, that Bukowski can be "too sad / depressing / offensive" and so he needs to be toned down to sell more books. Besides, Bukowski the writer is famous but Bukowski the poet, like all poetry, enjoys very limited popularity.
- vintagedave 5y agoThis is extraordinary. The sample edits given at the end of the article go far beyond normal editorial changes. They completely change the meaning and content of the poem. It is a _different poem_. This comment about the editor struck me: > "Now, when I bring this subject up among a certain crowd, they bristle. They become very defensive of Martin and downright antagonistic toward me while they list the many ways in which he is a wonderful man..." Does anyone know more about the relationship between Bukowski and Martin, and why Martin would be revered today? Why he would have supporters? Why he would even need supporters? (It seems odd that he'd have any role that meant he needed either detractors or fans; either seems a mistake in an editor.)
- Hoasi 5y agoMartin supported Bukowski early in his career (as a late-blossoming writer). There are many friendly mentions of him and Black Sparrow Press from Bukowski himself. They had a contract. Martin would publish anything Bukowski wrote, as long as he put himself to work. In hindsight, that offer does appear much less generous.
- glenstein 5y ago>The sample edits given at the end of the article go far beyond normal editorial changes. Right, as I was reading along, I thought how bad could this possibly be. But they changed: >I lost $40 >at the track >today >so I'm somewhat >bitter. To this: >and I won $400 >at the track >today >so I'm somewhat >pleased. Not that I've ever been a reader of Bukowski, but this is just changed into something that he simply didn't write. I had no idea that this was something that people did.
- kingcharles 5y agoNow I'm wondering what other books of poetry this has happened to and I didn't know it? Altering a poem is a whole different animal than editing a book or a movie, for instance.
- sombremesa 5y ago
- Hoasi 5y agoThese "corrections" are indeed a serious crime. And such a letdown from an old Bukowski friend.
- g5095 5y agoI'm hardly a SJW but it's 2022, can we stop equating rape which is a shockingly violent violation/assult of a real a human being with anything less. I'm sure I'm gonna get slammed for this but whatever.
- throwaway37388 5y agoThis is 2022, this term is very diluted now.
- Mizza 5y agoThis is textbook usage of an alternate dictionary definition of the word, not just usage for hyperbolic shock factor. Though obviously, it is a word which carries a lot of weight.
- mixedCase 5y agoI got the impression that was the point, to exaggerate. But I can't help but wonder, would you had felt the same way had the author chosen other shockingly violent acts such as "disembowelment", "lobotomy", "castration", or "amputation"?
- tokai 5y agoToo me all those words are over exaggerated. Nothing close to that has been done to Bukowski. His work is being misconstrued, and that's bad enough. Turns out rights holders are usually scum. I guess it depends on how much you like Bukowski if it feels overdone or not.
- _jal 5y agoThose are also over the top, but comparing text editing to violent sexual domination is well past the American taste for absurd overstatement, and just comes across like a silly, blinkered person overly absorbed in their little drama. It works against the author's apparent interest. They throw the dials to 11 as a bit of norm-setting editorializing about supposed severity of the unjust edits, but it just ends up being more bullshit clickbait, blending in to the background of every! other! desperate! headline!
- tokai 5y ago(2013)
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- dahak27 5y agoPeople are rightfully pointing out how ridiculous some of the overt substantive changes in that end poem are, but I was pretty amazed by how even the quite minor changes totally alter the feel of the thing too. "Sit on a couch and look at a wall" to "Laying on the couch and looking at the wall" loses a lot somehow in a hard-to-pin-down way. It's almost an impressively efficient butchering
- praptak 5y agoShorter phrases, shorter words and imperative sentences feel more powerful.
- dahak27 5y agoGood point yeah, I think the switch from indefinite to definite article also makes it feel less dissociated/bleak too somehow
- swayvil 5y ago>impressively efficient butchering He removes the testicles while leaving the valuable meat and fat entirely unblemished.
- uberdru 5y ago"Laying on the couch" is loaded with the kind of psychoanalytical implications that Bukowski hated. Which is a major reason why this feels so wrong. He would lie on the floor and listen to the radio.
- clsec 5y agoI've read a lot of his works and I could _never_ imagine Bukowski "laying on the couch and looking at the wall." Fortunately I have read only a few of his posthumous works. edit: changed very little to few
- StrictDabbler 5y ago"Sit" is from Middle English sitten, from Old English sittan, from Proto-West Germanic sittjan, from Proto-Germanic sitjaną, from Proto-Indo-European *sed- (“sit”). "Lay" is from Middle English lay, from Old French lai, from Latin laicus, from Ancient Greek λαϊκός (laïkós). In English, "sit" feels immediate and active where "lay" is passive and indirect. The distinction is both important and rooted in history. It is incredibly stupid that we still have editors trying to force English poetry into Latinate forms almost a millenium after the battle of Hastings and all the consequent Anglo/Norman jockeying for position.
- dhosek 5y agoOne of the most interesting things to do in terms of looking at editorial changes is to read side-by-side What We Talk About When We Talk About Love and Beginners by Raymond Carver. The latter is the unedited version of his collected stories. It's really fascinating to see how Gordon Lish really formed what people think of as Carver's style, although there are some really odd changes like the number of a hotel room was changed from Carver's original to Lish's version. In this case, though, I personally believe that Lish's editorial changes definitely improved Carver's work and while Carver originally disagreed, you can see the lasting impact on his style in his later works.
- Finnucane 5y agoI'm not a Bukowski fan in particular, but I have worked as an editor, and I can't imagine any writer I've worked with accepting that kind of heavy-handed rewriting of their works. For myself, I never tried to rewrite an author's work, generally the idea is to try to get the writer to do the work and follow your feedback willingly. When the writer is deceased you have fewer options, but I think you pretty much have to accept it as is, and say, this is what we have.
- dahak27 5y agoIs it common for editors to add to a writer's text? My naive assumption was that they often cut and re-structure and maybe suggest re-wording, but I'm surprised to see an editor actively add content that wasn't there at all
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- mewse-hn 5y agoEditors do participate in revisions quite a lot and for them to suggest additions is probably common. To take a writer's work posthumously, change it so drastically that you've reversed the meaning of paragraphs ("I lost at the track" -> "I won at the track"), and then publish it as that author's work without their involvement, I think that's beyond the pale.
- Finnucane 5y agoThe main point is that the process should be collaborative. Both parties are in agreement that the changes improve the result. And, I, for one, had no desire to do the author's work for them.
- aasasd 5y agoWhen I recently listened to an audiobook of Kafka's ‘The Process’ in English, it turned out to be based on a new edition, which explained that Max Brod originally applied some of his own editing to Kafka's manuscripts before releasing the books. And that the proper order of the chapters is currently unknown—whether because of Kafka or of Brod. Plus, apparently old translations of the book to English also mangled the words plentifully, introducing even more confusion. So there was some effort by modern editors to at least put the chapters in the order that makes more sense, and translate the text more straightforwardly.
- onemoresoop 5y agoPerhaps John Martin thought he was doing Charles Bukowski a favor with his educated corrections but I find them atrocious. The publishing world is rife with this type editing work. The film world is replete with changes that butcher the original work and intent of the original creator. When watching a movie look for the director's cut if multiple cuts exist.
- abbub 5y agoI mean...it kind of depends. As a history buff, I love the French plantation scene in the long version of Apocolypse Now Redux... I totally understand why it was removed from the original theatrical release, though. I think director cuts tend to play to the more 'hardcore' fans of a piece, and sometimes serve to make the work less accessible to more casual viewers.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- AlwaysRock 5y agoFor those who do not know Bukowski's work and wonder why a drunk post office worker gets so much attention, check out Bluebird: https://allpoetry.com/poem/8509539-Bluebird-by-Charles-Bukowski https://allpoetry.com/poem/8509539-Bluebird-by-Charles-Bukow...
- ms-fellag 5y agoA couple of weeks ago i was surprised to discover his "16-bit Intel 8088 chip" poem : https://allpoetry.com/16-bit-Intel-8088-chip https://allpoetry.com/16-bit-Intel-8088-chip
- mlyle 5y agoHe wrote this on a Mac IIsi-- https://realitystudio.org/bibliographic-bunker/charles-bukowski-william-burroughs-and-the-computer/ https://realitystudio.org/bibliographic-bunker/charles-bukow...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- at_a_remove 5y agoAlthough I had read him, I did not have a Bukowski "phase" that many do. I was introduced to him by a man who had worked for the United States Postal Service, which he frequently derided. He said to me, "If you want to find someone who hates the Postal Service more than I do, check this out ..." Well, I did, and read other things, and eventually began to recognize his contribution to culture, which is kind of a last step before my awareness of a particular author might fade, the way "The Copulating Mermaid of Venice, California" turns up in the concept for the Tom Petty video for "Mary Jane's Last Dance," and so on; I recognize, nod, and forget. I hadn't thought about him in years until I stumbled across "The Laughing Heart" as I was in a late night fit of hating my job. A part went "... be on the watch. the gods will offer you chances," which struck me as a kind of admonition. It was one I took to heart, because a "chance" happened not long after and I, in a rare fit of boldness, took it. Some of his short stories stood out, the fantastical ones, and of course the poetry. The poetry here is just ... well, one can imagine the early transporters in the Trek universe not working particularly well. Something emerges at the other end, it has a similar shape to it but doesn't quite fit together well enough, and you're left with something you hope will die on its own before it realizes what has happened to it. The "vulgar poem" sample is like that, some kind of tortured Bukowski clone flopped out of a steaming vat, bleated an unnatural sound, and then you don't know if you're crushing its head out of mercy or disgust, but you'd rather not have that happen again. And the article provides a handy index of avoiding such abominations, to boot!
- twox2 5y agoThis truly is a quite depressing abomination.
- rdtsc 5y agoJohn Martin used Bukowski as a cash cow basically. Bukowski's books funded other books that flop which John Martin's company published. https://www.poetrynw.org/interview-serious-books-a-conversation-with-john-martin/ https://www.poetrynw.org/interview-serious-books-a-conversat... It would be interesting to see how John Martin would explain those edits. They just look so bizarre, some invert the meaning completely, others are just petty edits to change stuff just for the heck of it. It's like there was a love-hate relationship between the two. In interview I found above, John keeps talking about himself when asked how the two of them hit it together, or how it was like seeing Bukowski rise and his response was basically "It was great, but look how much work I was doing". One could almost write a book about their relationship just based on the edits and reading into them all kinds of interesting things. It's like John hated the drinking and the vulgarity and try to correct some of it, but ended up ruining the work in the process.
- bambax 5y agoBukowski dead drunk on French TV in 1978: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C99h2r8txh4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C99h2r8txh4 At the time there were only 3 channels, and that show was very popular, so it's a famous moment. What I find surprising is how elegant he is, even in that situation.
- cooldrcool3 5y agoI don’t know if elegant is the right word. He just seemed like a drunk man who had been in that situation a few times before.
- Haneant 5y agoI've only read a little about Bukowski, but when his name comes up, I'll wonder how much he was innately a drunk asshole and how much he had to play one because it was his brand, and your public demands what's on-brand, and, oh, you know, your mask becomes your face and all that.
- monkeycantype 5y agoI love the side by side. The crisp debauchery shines next that other flabby timid slop
- worik 5y agoDo not use the term rape for anything but serious sexual assault. Deeply offensive.
- kentrado 5y agoThat's subjective. The meaning of words depends heavily in the context they are used.
- dentemple 5y agoAnd we're even talking about poetry! A subject that's famously all about playing with the meanings of words.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- bobberkarl 5y agoThis is a stupid comment. Policing language will bring you nowhere.
- Bayart 5y agoRape isn't originally sexually connoted and broadly means taken by force.
- phendrenad2 5y agoWow, scrolling to the end, where he shows the edits, it's not even subtle changes. He changes "a girl asked why I write" to "a girl asked why my writing is so vulgar". It feels like the editor thought he was "juicing up" the story and giving readers what they want. He also makes the grammar INCREDIBLy proper, more proper than most editors would. It feels like he just likes editing stuff.
- Cupertino95014 5y agoThere's a scene in the movie Sideways where the Paul Giamatti character quotes some poetry, and someone complicates him on his brilliance in writing it. He says, with disgust, "It's Bukowski."