6 ms·

I want a simple life where I program and run programs. I don't want to fight layer after layer of abstraction, some of which will inevitably impair my programs

by dsign 5y ago

I want a simple life where I program and run programs. I don't want to fight layer after layer of abstraction, some of which will inevitably impair my programs (i.e. by not allowing me to use SIMD or access the graphics coprocessor) and multiply tenfold my expenditure in cloud services. If you think I'm exaggerating, try to configure a GPU passwover to a virtual machine. It is doable, in your server in your garage, after you spend a considerable amount of hours of your life. In your cloud deployment? Only if you use Google or AWS, and even then, only for a price. Please, call the Spanish Inquisition, this guy needs to be prosecuted before he gathers a coven and gets away with this perversion.

gypsyharlot 5y ago
cmeacham98 5y ago
I'm not aware of any surcharge for using a GPU in a VM on AWS or GCP, could you link documentation of this? Of course AWS and GCP charge extra for units with GPUs in them, but I can't seriously expect you think they should stick a GPU in every VM instance for free?
honkycat 5y ago
> I want a simple life where I program and run programs... I feel like this is an oversimplification. The company I work for has tens of thousands of concurrent users, plus dozens (hundreds?) of business partners all of whom are integrating with our platform. We are not serving static HTML pages like StackOverflow, we have dynamic content and our customers want up-to-date analytics. So.. how am I supposed to "program and run programs" in this environment? You act like we invent complexity for no reason, but we are dealing with scale and "I want a simple life where I program and run programs" is like saying: "I want an easier job." Cool. They are out there. They probably don't pay as well. Meanwhile I'm going to try and fix the mess someone made 8 years ago in the monolith so the business paying my bills can keep making money. it ain't pretty, but its a living.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > You act like we invent complexity for no reason, but we are dealing with scale 1. Yes, we do invent complexity for no reason 2. The absolute vast majority of us don't deal with "scale" and most of the things we do can be done with a single beefy server (even for "tens of thousands of concurrent users") 3. Sayin that all SO does is serving static html pages is hugely disingenuous at best
  - mrweasel 5y ago
    > The absolute vast majority of us don't deal with "scale" and most of the things we do can be done with a single beefy server Most simply fail to understand exactly what modern servers are capable of. We continue to read article after article about "scaling out", but you're right, the vast majority will never have the need to scale beyond just a few servers.
    - immibis 5y ago
      I remember seeing that Stack Overflow runs on half a rack of servers, plus a redundant copy. https://nickcraver.com/blog/2016/03/29/stack-overflow-the-hardware-2016-edition/ https://nickcraver.com/blog/2016/03/29/stack-overflow-the-ha... I bet most people are running sites smaller than Stack Overflow (Alexa rank #65 [did you know Alexa is getting permanently shut down in a few months?!]).
- jack_riminton 5y ago
  > The company I work for has tens of thousands of concurrent users, plus dozens (hundreds?) of business partners all of whom are integrating with our platform. > We are not serving static HTML pages like StackOverflow, we have dynamic content and our customers want up-to-date analytics. Yeah that can all still be done with a simple monolithic CRUD app on just a few servers
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
crdrost 5y ago
I mean everything is what you make of it. The fact that wasm is sandboxed allows some genuinely new things. Imagine a JSON file starting with a line that gives a base64-encoded WASM parser for JSON. (Or a hash on a public database if you're worried.) Switch to YAML or TOML by changing that line up top, or add comments to your JSON, or get fed up and ship SQLite databases instead. Oh wait I have security concerns, I need to encrypt this file at rest, better change the code that consumes it—why? The registry has a NaCl container, just prefix the encrypted version with the wasm hash to prompt for a password and decrypt it. It’s a technique that used to be popular and then died out as networks proliferated—you could no longer be sure that your machine code did the right parse on someone else's architecture. Your container crashes and we coredump to an S3 bucket. You know what’s better than downloading gigabytes of coredump? If S3 can just let you spin up a container or run a WASM program on the storage node itself. You send the programs to the data so you don't need to pull the data to yourself. This post describes something like Erlang actors, but if each can be a pure function encoded in WASM... That is also a neat dream. But the next step is the MonadArrow instance, programs sending programs to each other. Then we’re “thinking with portals.”
- folex 5y ago
  > This post describes something like Erlang actors, but if each can be a pure function encoded in WASM... Not just a dream. https://github.com/fluencelabs/fluence https://github.com/fluencelabs/fluence
- immibis 5y ago
  > It’s a technique that used to be popular and then died out as networks proliferated—you could no longer be sure that your machine code did the right parse on someone else's architecture. This will be the case with WASM extensions. You won't be sure what's available in someone else's WASM environment. The only reason it's not the case with WASM on the web today is because it's so simple, and any differences are dealt with in the JavaScript layer. > Your container crashes and we coredump to an S3 bucket. You know what’s better than downloading gigabytes of coredump? If S3 can just let you spin up a container or run a WASM program on the storage node itself. S3 literally has this feature, and it doesn't even have to be WASM. It's called "S3 Object Lambda". It's quite new, so you're forgiven for not knowing about it. Downloading from S3 is quick and free if it's within the same region, so you don't actually need this anyway.
marcos100 5y ago
VM allowed cheaper computing by using resources in a more efficient way, but it came with the cost of abstracting the components. You can always buy bare metal and have your simple life.
immibis 5y ago
I'm pretty sure in a cloud service you are not paying for GPU passthrough, you are paying for the GPU itself!
mr_toad 5y ago
Even assembly code is an abstraction.

by dsign 5y ago

gypsyharlot 5y ago

cmeacham98 5y ago

I'm not aware of any surcharge for using a GPU in a VM on AWS or GCP, could you link documentation of this? Of course AWS and GCP charge extra for units with GPUs in them, but I can't seriously expect you think they should stick a GPU in every VM instance for free?

honkycat 5y ago

> I want a simple life where I program and run programs... I feel like this is an oversimplification. The company I work for has tens of thousands of concurrent users, plus dozens (hundreds?) of business partners all of whom are integrating with our platform. We are not serving static HTML pages like StackOverflow, we have dynamic content and our customers want up-to-date analytics. So.. how am I supposed to "program and run programs" in this environment? You act like we invent complexity for no reason, but we are dealing with scale and "I want a simple life where I program and run programs" is like saying: "I want an easier job." Cool. They are out there. They probably don't pay as well. Meanwhile I'm going to try and fix the mess someone made 8 years ago in the monolith so the business paying my bills can keep making money. it ain't pretty, but its a living.

dmitriid 5y ago
> You act like we invent complexity for no reason, but we are dealing with scale 1. Yes, we do invent complexity for no reason 2. The absolute vast majority of us don't deal with "scale" and most of the things we do can be done with a single beefy server (even for "tens of thousands of concurrent users") 3. Sayin that all SO does is serving static html pages is hugely disingenuous at best
- mrweasel 5y ago
  > The absolute vast majority of us don't deal with "scale" and most of the things we do can be done with a single beefy server Most simply fail to understand exactly what modern servers are capable of. We continue to read article after article about "scaling out", but you're right, the vast majority will never have the need to scale beyond just a few servers.
  - immibis 5y ago
    I remember seeing that Stack Overflow runs on half a rack of servers, plus a redundant copy. https://nickcraver.com/blog/2016/03/29/stack-overflow-the-hardware-2016-edition/ https://nickcraver.com/blog/2016/03/29/stack-overflow-the-ha... I bet most people are running sites smaller than Stack Overflow (Alexa rank #65 [did you know Alexa is getting permanently shut down in a few months?!]).
jack_riminton 5y ago
> The company I work for has tens of thousands of concurrent users, plus dozens (hundreds?) of business partners all of whom are integrating with our platform. > We are not serving static HTML pages like StackOverflow, we have dynamic content and our customers want up-to-date analytics. Yeah that can all still be done with a simple monolithic CRUD app on just a few servers

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

crdrost 5y ago

I mean everything is what you make of it. The fact that wasm is sandboxed allows some genuinely new things. Imagine a JSON file starting with a line that gives a base64-encoded WASM parser for JSON. (Or a hash on a public database if you're worried.) Switch to YAML or TOML by changing that line up top, or add comments to your JSON, or get fed up and ship SQLite databases instead. Oh wait I have security concerns, I need to encrypt this file at rest, better change the code that consumes it—why? The registry has a NaCl container, just prefix the encrypted version with the wasm hash to prompt for a password and decrypt it. It’s a technique that used to be popular and then died out as networks proliferated—you could no longer be sure that your machine code did the right parse on someone else's architecture. Your container crashes and we coredump to an S3 bucket. You know what’s better than downloading gigabytes of coredump? If S3 can just let you spin up a container or run a WASM program on the storage node itself. You send the programs to the data so you don't need to pull the data to yourself. This post describes something like Erlang actors, but if each can be a pure function encoded in WASM... That is also a neat dream. But the next step is the MonadArrow instance, programs sending programs to each other. Then we’re “thinking with portals.”

folex 5y ago
> This post describes something like Erlang actors, but if each can be a pure function encoded in WASM... Not just a dream. https://github.com/fluencelabs/fluence https://github.com/fluencelabs/fluence
immibis 5y ago
> It’s a technique that used to be popular and then died out as networks proliferated—you could no longer be sure that your machine code did the right parse on someone else's architecture. This will be the case with WASM extensions. You won't be sure what's available in someone else's WASM environment. The only reason it's not the case with WASM on the web today is because it's so simple, and any differences are dealt with in the JavaScript layer. > Your container crashes and we coredump to an S3 bucket. You know what’s better than downloading gigabytes of coredump? If S3 can just let you spin up a container or run a WASM program on the storage node itself. S3 literally has this feature, and it doesn't even have to be WASM. It's called "S3 Object Lambda". It's quite new, so you're forgiven for not knowing about it. Downloading from S3 is quick and free if it's within the same region, so you don't actually need this anyway.

marcos100 5y ago

VM allowed cheaper computing by using resources in a more efficient way, but it came with the cost of abstracting the components. You can always buy bare metal and have your simple life.

immibis 5y ago

I'm pretty sure in a cloud service you are not paying for GPU passthrough, you are paying for the GPU itself!

mr_toad 5y ago

Even assembly code is an abstraction.