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And it's not just Windows proper, but also things like PowerToys. In every version of Windows since at least 2.0, Alt+Space has worked to bring up the system m

And it's not just Windows proper, but also things like PowerToys. In every version of Windows since at least 2.0, Alt+Space has worked to bring up the system menu for the current window. This is the same menu you get if you click the app icon in the top left corner. Once in a while, this has been a lifesaver for me when a window gets stuck offscreen with my multiple monitor configuration. It is a bit tricky, but even if you can't see the window, you can press Alt+Space to open the system menu, then M to select the Move menu item, then press any arrow key, and finally you can use the mouse to move the window around. Yes, quite kludgy, but this has worked on every version of Windows for decades. The PowerToys team decided to take over Alt+Space for their own Mac-style launcher, without even warning you at install time that they are disabling a fundamental Windows keyboard shortcut. This caused me loss of data when I tried to use that trick for a window that got stuck offscreen. I forgot that I'd installed PowerToys a while back, and Alt+Space didn't work to rescue my window! There have been multiple threads and GitHub issues raised on this, but the PowerToys team has seemed deaf to the problem. They closed one of the issues with a comment like "our metrics show that very few people use Alt+Space for its old purpose, so we felt OK about reassigning it." I was like, "Your m-----f---ing metrics told you that? Your metrics just caused me loss of data! Do I need to go get Raymond Chen to explain to you the value of backward compatibility?" But I didn't post that, as there is no hope of getting through to people who think metrics should tell them what to do. Let's say there are a billion Windows users. And only a tenth of one percent know about Alt+Space to open the system menu. No big deal, that's only a million users you have just inconvenienced or caused to lose data. Please forgive the rant, but I just don't understand that line of thinking.

CrendKing 5y ago
Reminds me how Mozilla removes various things from Firefox such as [Compact density](https://www.pcmag.com/news/firefox-redesign-will-see-compact-density-option-disappear https://www.pcmag.com/news/firefox-redesign-will-see-compact...) because their telemetry tells them nobody uses them. And oh boy the backlash from the community...
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Reminds me how Mozilla removes various things from Firefox...because their telemetry tells them nobody uses them Got I hate telemetry. I usually (and I imagine many people) turn it off because I don't like my stuff phoning back to the mothership, but then some brainless moron mindlessly uses their "data" for decision-making, and rips out good features. This is especially dumb for Mozilla. Who do they think still uses Firefox? The people who want some dumbed down minimalist lookalike? Their overall browser market-share isn't too much more than Samsung Internet, and probably the only reason anyone still uses it anymore is that it's not as dumbed down as Chrome. Maybe they should just run with being the browser for power users, with all kinds of interesting niche features and customization. Honestly, UX telemetery probably should be banned for everything except error reporting. Nothing good seems to come of it. If you want to know what people do with your stuff, just try to empathize and maybe have some focus groups.
  - lodovic 5y ago
    You could argue that the majority of telemetry is produced by the most compliant subset of the users. Critical or privacy-savvy users will probably reject telemetry when asked. These users will accept all the bad UX ideas.
    - userbinator 5y ago
      In other words, the data is just acting as confirmation bias.
  - antisthenes 5y ago
    > Maybe they should just run with being the browser for power users, with all kinds of interesting niche features and customization. The ship has long sailed after they killed their addon ecosystem by killing XUL addons. The quality and feature-sets of addons took as much a nosedive as their user-share. Since then, they were keen on continuing this trajectory, and introduced multiple UX/UI regressions that alienated all (most?) of their power users, sometimes even disallowing fixes through about:config. That .gov analytics site that was posted here yesterday showed Firefox setting at 2.4%, which is just about right for all the string of horrible decisions they've made. The horse is dead, Jim. And, unlike an old movie or a videogame, almost no one is going to have nostalgia feelings for a web browser.
stirlo 5y ago
It’s an optional power user add in you’re complaining about not a system wide change. Just disable that feature if you don’t like it.
- Stratoscope 5y ago
  I was describing how this metrics-driven style of development infected not just the core Windows team, but peripheral teams like the PowerToys group. PowerToys used to be a rather benign system enhancement. It didn't take away any features I already relied on, it just added new features. So when I saw that there was a new PowerToys for Windows 10, I installed it. I figured it wouldn't get in the way and I would discover its enhancements over time. I didn't know at the time that it would disable a basic system keyboard shortcut that I had relied on decades.
  - hnra 5y ago
    Couldn’t you just open PowerToys and disable the feature though, or does that not restore the other shortcut?
    - Stratoscope 5y ago
      Of course I could, and I did, eventually. The problem was that in the moment, I did not understand why my Alt+Space shortcut that had always worked before instead brought up this weird launcher window instead of the standard system menu I was expecting. After fiddling around for some time, I gave up and rebooted and lost data. Once I learned what was going on, I switched the shortcut in PowerToys. That does not excuse the PowerToys team for disabling a fundamental Windows shortcut key combo.
Someone1234 5y ago
> I tried to use that trick for a window that got stuck offscreen. Aside to your larger point, but WIN+SHIFT+DOWN ARROW (restore), WIN+SHIFT+LEFT or RIGHT ARROW (move monitor) are an alternative go-to for saving off-screen windows. You can also reconfigure Powertoys Run to use a different key-combination than ALT-Space.
jquery 5y ago
I didn’t expect to see a Powertoys rant in this thread. Seemed like one of the few teams at Microsoft that’s clearly power-user-focused and eats its own dogfood. Has made my life easier in several ways. Very difficult to live without once you become accustomed to it, has a number of features that should be shipped with Windows but aren’t for some reason.
moogly 5y ago
The initial versions of PowerToys Run used the old WindowWalker default shortcut of Win+Ctrl, which I found to be fantastic. Then they rewrote the whole hotkey detection code which made that hotkey combination nonfunctional. Now I use Win+Ctrl+Space but it doesn't work at all if certain apps are focused, ironically VSCode and Windows Terminal, so you have to enable some "compatibility mode" that also doesn't work properly sometimes with those apps in focus. The PowerToys Run window pops up but it isn't always focused. Might have to fork the damn thing and reinstate the old hotkey code :/
abandonliberty 5y ago
Mine's set to Win+Space. Finally a use for the windows key! (on top of win+shift+arrows)
alushta 5y ago
minimouse 5y ago
They very existence of PowerToys is a testament to Windows's mismanagement. They wrapped search around Wox, an app that uses Everything, to appease users who were unhappy with Windows Search. Microsoft declined to use Everything to power their search, by the way. Most PowerToy suggestions on their GitHub are just Windows suggestions and bug fixes.
CRConrad 5y ago
They did?!? Please excuse me a sec, while I go uninstall that shit...

CrendKing 5y ago

Reminds me how Mozilla removes various things from Firefox such as [Compact density](https://www.pcmag.com/news/firefox-redesign-will-see-compact-density-option-disappear https://www.pcmag.com/news/firefox-redesign-will-see-compact...) because their telemetry tells them nobody uses them. And oh boy the backlash from the community...

tablespoon 5y ago
> Reminds me how Mozilla removes various things from Firefox...because their telemetry tells them nobody uses them Got I hate telemetry. I usually (and I imagine many people) turn it off because I don't like my stuff phoning back to the mothership, but then some brainless moron mindlessly uses their "data" for decision-making, and rips out good features. This is especially dumb for Mozilla. Who do they think still uses Firefox? The people who want some dumbed down minimalist lookalike? Their overall browser market-share isn't too much more than Samsung Internet, and probably the only reason anyone still uses it anymore is that it's not as dumbed down as Chrome. Maybe they should just run with being the browser for power users, with all kinds of interesting niche features and customization. Honestly, UX telemetery probably should be banned for everything except error reporting. Nothing good seems to come of it. If you want to know what people do with your stuff, just try to empathize and maybe have some focus groups.
- lodovic 5y ago
  You could argue that the majority of telemetry is produced by the most compliant subset of the users. Critical or privacy-savvy users will probably reject telemetry when asked. These users will accept all the bad UX ideas.
  - userbinator 5y ago
    In other words, the data is just acting as confirmation bias.
- antisthenes 5y ago
  > Maybe they should just run with being the browser for power users, with all kinds of interesting niche features and customization. The ship has long sailed after they killed their addon ecosystem by killing XUL addons. The quality and feature-sets of addons took as much a nosedive as their user-share. Since then, they were keen on continuing this trajectory, and introduced multiple UX/UI regressions that alienated all (most?) of their power users, sometimes even disallowing fixes through about:config. That .gov analytics site that was posted here yesterday showed Firefox setting at 2.4%, which is just about right for all the string of horrible decisions they've made. The horse is dead, Jim. And, unlike an old movie or a videogame, almost no one is going to have nostalgia feelings for a web browser.

stirlo 5y ago

It’s an optional power user add in you’re complaining about not a system wide change. Just disable that feature if you don’t like it.

Stratoscope 5y ago
I was describing how this metrics-driven style of development infected not just the core Windows team, but peripheral teams like the PowerToys group. PowerToys used to be a rather benign system enhancement. It didn't take away any features I already relied on, it just added new features. So when I saw that there was a new PowerToys for Windows 10, I installed it. I figured it wouldn't get in the way and I would discover its enhancements over time. I didn't know at the time that it would disable a basic system keyboard shortcut that I had relied on decades.
- hnra 5y ago
  Couldn’t you just open PowerToys and disable the feature though, or does that not restore the other shortcut?
  - Stratoscope 5y ago
    Of course I could, and I did, eventually. The problem was that in the moment, I did not understand why my Alt+Space shortcut that had always worked before instead brought up this weird launcher window instead of the standard system menu I was expecting. After fiddling around for some time, I gave up and rebooted and lost data. Once I learned what was going on, I switched the shortcut in PowerToys. That does not excuse the PowerToys team for disabling a fundamental Windows shortcut key combo.

Someone1234 5y ago

> I tried to use that trick for a window that got stuck offscreen. Aside to your larger point, but WIN+SHIFT+DOWN ARROW (restore), WIN+SHIFT+LEFT or RIGHT ARROW (move monitor) are an alternative go-to for saving off-screen windows. You can also reconfigure Powertoys Run to use a different key-combination than ALT-Space.

jquery 5y ago

I didn’t expect to see a Powertoys rant in this thread. Seemed like one of the few teams at Microsoft that’s clearly power-user-focused and eats its own dogfood. Has made my life easier in several ways. Very difficult to live without once you become accustomed to it, has a number of features that should be shipped with Windows but aren’t for some reason.

moogly 5y ago

The initial versions of PowerToys Run used the old WindowWalker default shortcut of Win+Ctrl, which I found to be fantastic. Then they rewrote the whole hotkey detection code which made that hotkey combination nonfunctional. Now I use Win+Ctrl+Space but it doesn't work at all if certain apps are focused, ironically VSCode and Windows Terminal, so you have to enable some "compatibility mode" that also doesn't work properly sometimes with those apps in focus. The PowerToys Run window pops up but it isn't always focused. Might have to fork the damn thing and reinstate the old hotkey code :/

abandonliberty 5y ago

Mine's set to Win+Space. Finally a use for the windows key! (on top of win+shift+arrows)

alushta 5y ago

minimouse 5y ago

They very existence of PowerToys is a testament to Windows's mismanagement. They wrapped search around Wox, an app that uses Everything, to appease users who were unhappy with Windows Search. Microsoft declined to use Everything to power their search, by the way. Most PowerToy suggestions on their GitHub are just Windows suggestions and bug fixes.

CRConrad 5y ago

They did?!? Please excuse me a sec, while I go uninstall that shit...