4 ms·

For devs I think it matters less. But, yeah, for designers on the _Windows Desktop Experience Team_ to not be using their own product for day to day work is abs

For devs I think it matters less. But, yeah, for designers on the _Windows Desktop Experience Team_ to not be using their own product for day to day work is absurd to me. It sounds like a joke: "The people who designed this shitty feature don't even use it themselves", but alas, it appears to be the truth.

Aerroon 5y ago
Why would you even hire designers that don't use Windows as their daily OS? It's not even a question of making designers use your software, but you could just hire people who do. Globally you probably have to go out of your way to hire a designer that wasn't Windows based.
- chelical 5y ago
  I'm not sure this is true. Anecdotally, across three Fortune 500 tech companies I've worked at, designers / web devs / program managers had Macbooks (or had the option of choosing Macbooks) even when the team was developing primarily in Windows.
- gabeio 5y ago
  > Globally you probably have to go out of your way to hire a designer that wasn't Windows based. That, likely, highly depends on your industry. Designers doing mobile application design, as well as web design from my limited experience tend to steer towards Macs. Even within my college the entire graphics design department was Macs. Of course if you are working on a Windows based product you'd in theory expect the designers to use or be familiar enough with Windows but you may be surprised. I'd be curious to know if there are regional (country) differences in this.
  - zarzavat 5y ago
    The key word is ‘globally’. MacBooks are expensive, and because they are hardware they cannot be pirated. I’ve worked with Eastern European designers who were excellent but could not afford Apple hardware. You only have to look outside North America and Western Europe. It’s tragic that because of elitism Microsoft does not hire those designers and instead hires designers who don’t care about their product.
    - neoberg 5y ago
      Which country is that you are referring as Eastern Europe? I live in Eastern Europe and every designer + most of the devs I know are using Macs. I am not originally from here and my home country currently is economically worse than most Eastern Europe countries. Even there majority of designers use Macs.
- zakius 5y ago
  I think having some people daily driving other systems may be beneficial, providing a fresh view but if majority of your lead designers never in their lives used the taskbar they are surprised when replacing it with a dock causes outcry
- numpad0 5y ago
  Designers who could tolerate a Windows laptop in the Win7 era are probably not good designers. They were mostly inexcusably ugly, and Adobe software support was known to be not ideal until late Win8.
  - zakius 5y ago
    anyone who tolerates laptops at all is not good at judging ergonomics and usability, they are only made so you can get the necessary minimum done when you can't access the main machine and it shows
    - numpad0 5y ago
      That is an expert's view which is not valued today which makes it untrue. I personally agree, I totally do, I mean my setup has triple display and plenty RAM, but sorry!
    - newsbinator 5y ago
      I do all my work from the sofa or floor. Bad ergonomics but good usability.
      - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        Well, I know we all have our kinks and perversions, but it's a bit unfair to push them onto unsuspecting joe
      - zakius 5y ago
        the physical and mental pain related to the terrible "keyboards" and cooling systems and small, poorly positioned screens laptops offer makes the usability nearly non-existent
        newsbinator 5y ago
        You haven't really coded until you've coded under a blanket. And I'm not an indestructible 20-year-old either :)
- andi999 5y ago
  You could say, you dont want the designer who is supposed to design win8 to be comfortably working with win7. Instead you want them to be more inspired by different OSes.
  - lionkor 5y ago
    Really, why though? Is there something inherently wrong with satisfying user expectations? If you want innovation, how about performance, accessibility, compatibility,...
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    It's one thing to be inspired, it's another to be completely ignorant of how you are breaking workflows for a billion people
  - alpaca128 5y ago
    If people wanted a fundamentally different UI than Windows has then they wouldn't use Windows in the first place. When we went from XP to Windows 7 that was a huge improvement. It was fundamentally still the same UI with the exact same workflows, just nicer in every way. When you have over a billion users worldwide there's an expectation that you don't treat your product like a startup's art project. I haven't met a single person who wasn't completely confused by Windows 8's UI or who liked the changes. I've seen lifelong Windows users spend 10+ minutes desperately looking for the shutdown button. There's "inspiration" by different products but in the end you need to know your own product in order to improve it.
puchatek 5y ago
"Dog food? No, thank you."
- gibolt 5y ago
  "Do you have any apples?"
  - GeorgeWBasic 5y ago
    "You're fired. How do you like them apples?"
grishka 5y ago
I know way too many people who build Android apps but use an iPhone as their personal phone. And this is how you get things like the back button going back through tabs that you selected on the tab bar. Even some of Google's own apps are guilty of this.

Aerroon 5y ago

Why would you even hire designers that don't use Windows as their daily OS? It's not even a question of making designers use your software, but you could just hire people who do. Globally you probably have to go out of your way to hire a designer that wasn't Windows based.

chelical 5y ago
I'm not sure this is true. Anecdotally, across three Fortune 500 tech companies I've worked at, designers / web devs / program managers had Macbooks (or had the option of choosing Macbooks) even when the team was developing primarily in Windows.
gabeio 5y ago
> Globally you probably have to go out of your way to hire a designer that wasn't Windows based. That, likely, highly depends on your industry. Designers doing mobile application design, as well as web design from my limited experience tend to steer towards Macs. Even within my college the entire graphics design department was Macs. Of course if you are working on a Windows based product you'd in theory expect the designers to use or be familiar enough with Windows but you may be surprised. I'd be curious to know if there are regional (country) differences in this.
- zarzavat 5y ago
  The key word is ‘globally’. MacBooks are expensive, and because they are hardware they cannot be pirated. I’ve worked with Eastern European designers who were excellent but could not afford Apple hardware. You only have to look outside North America and Western Europe. It’s tragic that because of elitism Microsoft does not hire those designers and instead hires designers who don’t care about their product.
  - neoberg 5y ago
    Which country is that you are referring as Eastern Europe? I live in Eastern Europe and every designer + most of the devs I know are using Macs. I am not originally from here and my home country currently is economically worse than most Eastern Europe countries. Even there majority of designers use Macs.
zakius 5y ago
I think having some people daily driving other systems may be beneficial, providing a fresh view but if majority of your lead designers never in their lives used the taskbar they are surprised when replacing it with a dock causes outcry
numpad0 5y ago
Designers who could tolerate a Windows laptop in the Win7 era are probably not good designers. They were mostly inexcusably ugly, and Adobe software support was known to be not ideal until late Win8.
- zakius 5y ago
  anyone who tolerates laptops at all is not good at judging ergonomics and usability, they are only made so you can get the necessary minimum done when you can't access the main machine and it shows
  - numpad0 5y ago
    That is an expert's view which is not valued today which makes it untrue. I personally agree, I totally do, I mean my setup has triple display and plenty RAM, but sorry!
  - newsbinator 5y ago
    I do all my work from the sofa or floor. Bad ergonomics but good usability.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      Well, I know we all have our kinks and perversions, but it's a bit unfair to push them onto unsuspecting joe
    - zakius 5y ago
      the physical and mental pain related to the terrible "keyboards" and cooling systems and small, poorly positioned screens laptops offer makes the usability nearly non-existent
      - newsbinator 5y ago
        You haven't really coded until you've coded under a blanket. And I'm not an indestructible 20-year-old either :)
andi999 5y ago
You could say, you dont want the designer who is supposed to design win8 to be comfortably working with win7. Instead you want them to be more inspired by different OSes.
- lionkor 5y ago
  Really, why though? Is there something inherently wrong with satisfying user expectations? If you want innovation, how about performance, accessibility, compatibility,...
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  It's one thing to be inspired, it's another to be completely ignorant of how you are breaking workflows for a billion people
- alpaca128 5y ago
  If people wanted a fundamentally different UI than Windows has then they wouldn't use Windows in the first place. When we went from XP to Windows 7 that was a huge improvement. It was fundamentally still the same UI with the exact same workflows, just nicer in every way. When you have over a billion users worldwide there's an expectation that you don't treat your product like a startup's art project. I haven't met a single person who wasn't completely confused by Windows 8's UI or who liked the changes. I've seen lifelong Windows users spend 10+ minutes desperately looking for the shutdown button. There's "inspiration" by different products but in the end you need to know your own product in order to improve it.

puchatek 5y ago

"Dog food? No, thank you."

gibolt 5y ago
"Do you have any apples?"
- GeorgeWBasic 5y ago
  "You're fired. How do you like them apples?"

grishka 5y ago

I know way too many people who build Android apps but use an iPhone as their personal phone. And this is how you get things like the back button going back through tabs that you selected on the tab bar. Even some of Google's own apps are guilty of this.