4 ms·

Then I suppose the planet should just switch en masse to English or Mandarin...you know, for beneficial "efficiency" because that is the sole purpose of human e

by zeruch 5y ago

Then I suppose the planet should just switch en masse to English or Mandarin...you know, for beneficial "efficiency" because that is the sole purpose of human existence.

lmm 5y ago
This but unironically. Languages are tools for communication. If you want the best future for your children, focus on giving them access to the most widespread languages with the broadest and deepest literary cultures.
- zeruch 5y ago
  There are very few languages without depth of tradition, either/and oral or written. And your premise is predicated on "the best future" being an objective standard that all people seek, which is by and large, not the case. I don't disagree with your position in the abstract, but I think its a little too rigid for a world growing both increasingly "small" and contactable in all spaces, yet parochial in terms of people wanting to hold onto their local traditions. The two can in fact coincide, if everyone realizes that seeking total homogeneity isnt that great of a goal, even if it helps 'scaling'.
- mendigou 5y ago
  I'm curious, are you a native English speaker? I'm not, but I speak 7 languages. I can tell you they are not just "tools for communication". They are expressions of culture and you can see in them how people think. There are things I can say in Spanish that I can't say in German or Japanese, not because of lack of vocabulary (well, that too) but because the concepts just don't translate. And this happens in both directions. Even my behavior changes when I'm speaking some languages. Edit: it goes without saying but I believe that that diversity of cultures is a great thing we should cherish.
  - iamacyborg 5y ago
    > you can see in them how people think. This is something that’s really difficult for folks to comprehend if they don’t speak more than one language but it’s a known phenomenon. https://qz.com/977356/being-bilingual-makes-you-experience-time-differently/ https://qz.com/977356/being-bilingual-makes-you-experience-t...
  - Tor3 5y ago
    I don't speak that many languages, but everything you say fits with my household even so, with our three languages (and my acquaintance with other additional languages). Every day my wife and I come across concepts we can't easily express in one language but we can in another. Any my wife says I'm a different person when I switch languages. Well I knew that from before - when my only other active second language was English. Change language, change how you think.
  - lmm 5y ago
    > I'm curious, are you a native English speaker? English is one of my native languages yes. > I'm not, but I speak 7 languages. I can tell you they are not just "tools for communication". They are expressions of culture and you can see in them how people think. > There are things I can say in Spanish that I can't say in German or Japanese, not because of lack of vocabulary (well, that too) but because the concepts just don't translate. And this happens in both directions. > Even my behavior changes when I'm speaking some languages. People attribute these differences to language, but I think that's mixing up cause and effect. Learning Japanese has meant learning a whole new culture and new ways of thinking - but those ways of thinking seem to be far more part of the Japanese culture than they are part of the Japanese language - e.g. even when speaking English, Japanese people will generally express those same concepts and modes (quite successfully, even when they're "objectively" untranslatable). Put it this way: not only would I say that the difference between my behaviour and interaction pattern when talking to a Japanese person in English and a Welsh person in English is bigger than the difference between talking to a Welsh person in English and a Welsh person in Welsh, I'd say that the difference between talking to a Welsh person in English in Wales and talking to a Welsh person in English in Japan (in a culturally Japanese context like a workplace - perhaps not in the tourist spots) is bigger than the difference between talking to a Welsh person in English and talking to a Welsh person in Welsh. > Edit: it goes without saying but I believe that that diversity of cultures is a great thing we should cherish. Hmm. I think many cultures have valuable things that are worth preserving, and in some cases valuable things from different cultures are incompatible with each other and so must be preserved separately, and a monoculture carries a risk of catastrophe. But I don't believe in diversity as an end in itself; if there's some cultural practice that is simply bad and has better alternatives, I think it would be crazy to insist on preserving it just for the sake of it.
    - meigwilym 5y ago
      I have to disagree. It's tempting to reduce a language to just a means of communication, but it's one of the things that make us human. The language you speak when you grow up forms your cultural identity. I'm not sure which came first, that the language structure formed the culture or that the culture formed the language, but I think there's some truth to the statement. A language is the key to another culture, and it's the first step to understanding them. Anyway, braf gweld siaradwr Cymraeg arall yma! (nice to see another Welsh speaker here!)
- otabdeveloper4 5y ago
  > Languages are tools for communication. Not really. Or, they are, but that's not their primary purpose. (When we need to communicate precisely we use highly specialized technical jargon or math, not natural human languages.)

by zeruch 5y ago

Then I suppose the planet should just switch en masse to English or Mandarin...you know, for beneficial "efficiency" because that is the sole purpose of human existence.

lmm 5y ago

This but unironically. Languages are tools for communication. If you want the best future for your children, focus on giving them access to the most widespread languages with the broadest and deepest literary cultures.

zeruch 5y ago
There are very few languages without depth of tradition, either/and oral or written. And your premise is predicated on "the best future" being an objective standard that all people seek, which is by and large, not the case. I don't disagree with your position in the abstract, but I think its a little too rigid for a world growing both increasingly "small" and contactable in all spaces, yet parochial in terms of people wanting to hold onto their local traditions. The two can in fact coincide, if everyone realizes that seeking total homogeneity isnt that great of a goal, even if it helps 'scaling'.
mendigou 5y ago
I'm curious, are you a native English speaker? I'm not, but I speak 7 languages. I can tell you they are not just "tools for communication". They are expressions of culture and you can see in them how people think. There are things I can say in Spanish that I can't say in German or Japanese, not because of lack of vocabulary (well, that too) but because the concepts just don't translate. And this happens in both directions. Even my behavior changes when I'm speaking some languages. Edit: it goes without saying but I believe that that diversity of cultures is a great thing we should cherish.
- iamacyborg 5y ago
  > you can see in them how people think. This is something that’s really difficult for folks to comprehend if they don’t speak more than one language but it’s a known phenomenon. https://qz.com/977356/being-bilingual-makes-you-experience-time-differently/ https://qz.com/977356/being-bilingual-makes-you-experience-t...
- Tor3 5y ago
  I don't speak that many languages, but everything you say fits with my household even so, with our three languages (and my acquaintance with other additional languages). Every day my wife and I come across concepts we can't easily express in one language but we can in another. Any my wife says I'm a different person when I switch languages. Well I knew that from before - when my only other active second language was English. Change language, change how you think.
- lmm 5y ago
  > I'm curious, are you a native English speaker? English is one of my native languages yes. > I'm not, but I speak 7 languages. I can tell you they are not just "tools for communication". They are expressions of culture and you can see in them how people think. > There are things I can say in Spanish that I can't say in German or Japanese, not because of lack of vocabulary (well, that too) but because the concepts just don't translate. And this happens in both directions. > Even my behavior changes when I'm speaking some languages. People attribute these differences to language, but I think that's mixing up cause and effect. Learning Japanese has meant learning a whole new culture and new ways of thinking - but those ways of thinking seem to be far more part of the Japanese culture than they are part of the Japanese language - e.g. even when speaking English, Japanese people will generally express those same concepts and modes (quite successfully, even when they're "objectively" untranslatable). Put it this way: not only would I say that the difference between my behaviour and interaction pattern when talking to a Japanese person in English and a Welsh person in English is bigger than the difference between talking to a Welsh person in English and a Welsh person in Welsh, I'd say that the difference between talking to a Welsh person in English in Wales and talking to a Welsh person in English in Japan (in a culturally Japanese context like a workplace - perhaps not in the tourist spots) is bigger than the difference between talking to a Welsh person in English and talking to a Welsh person in Welsh. > Edit: it goes without saying but I believe that that diversity of cultures is a great thing we should cherish. Hmm. I think many cultures have valuable things that are worth preserving, and in some cases valuable things from different cultures are incompatible with each other and so must be preserved separately, and a monoculture carries a risk of catastrophe. But I don't believe in diversity as an end in itself; if there's some cultural practice that is simply bad and has better alternatives, I think it would be crazy to insist on preserving it just for the sake of it.
  - meigwilym 5y ago
    I have to disagree. It's tempting to reduce a language to just a means of communication, but it's one of the things that make us human. The language you speak when you grow up forms your cultural identity. I'm not sure which came first, that the language structure formed the culture or that the culture formed the language, but I think there's some truth to the statement. A language is the key to another culture, and it's the first step to understanding them. Anyway, braf gweld siaradwr Cymraeg arall yma! (nice to see another Welsh speaker here!)
otabdeveloper4 5y ago
> Languages are tools for communication. Not really. Or, they are, but that's not their primary purpose. (When we need to communicate precisely we use highly specialized technical jargon or math, not natural human languages.)