6 ms·

> especially in a country like Spain. Funny considering Catalonia pays more in taxes than Madrid.

weatherlight 5y ago
I'm not sure why you are being down voted for saying this. Citation here -> https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/europe/catalan-referendum-explained/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/europe/catalan-referendum-exp...
- elnatro 5y ago
  Old article. Please, be advised that the push for independence referendum in 2017 was illegal, as the autonomous communities can’t organize referendums (as per the Spanish Constitution). Note that the nationalists have made no proposal for a Constitutional change in that way.
  - cronopios 5y ago
    That's simply not true: Spanish Constitution do allow autonomous communities to organize referenda. As a matter of fact, quite a few have been held: * Basque Country, 1979-10-25: Referéndum sobre el proyecto de Estatuto de Autonomía para el País Vasco * Catalonia, 1979-10-25: Referéndum sobre el Estatuto de Autonomía de Cataluña * Andalusia, 1980-02-28: Referéndum sobre la iniciativa del proceso autonómico de Andalucía * Galicia, 1980-12-21: Referendum sobre el Estatuto de Autonomía de Galicia * Andalusia, 1981-10-20: Referéndum sobre el Estatuto de Autonomía de Andalucía * Catalonia, 2006-06-18: Referéndum sobre la reforma del Estatuto de Autonomía de Cataluña * Andalusia, 2007-02-18: Referéndum sobre la reforma del Estatuto de Autonomía de Andalucía
    - elnatro 5y ago
      Those referendums were about constituting the regions as Autonomous Communities (what in USA is an “state”), or about updating their “estatuto de autonomía” (declaration of state). They were not about independence from Spain. Actually, Spain forbids independence clearly in its Constitution, as it is illegal in many other countries, like the USA for example.
      - la_oveja 5y ago
        It also states that every spaniard has the right to a proper house, and yet here we are...
        harperlee 5y ago
        Doesn't seem to be related to the discussion, does it?
        elnatro 5y ago
        How is that related to the discussion? Are we going to “cancel” the Constitution?
      - xondono 5y ago
        > Those referendums were about constituting the regions as Autonomous Communities (what in USA is an “state”), or about updating their “estatuto de autonomía” (declaration of state) First, comparing the autonomous communities to states is ludicrous. The legal standing is very different. > updating their “estatuto de autonomía” This is technically part of the Spanish constitution, not that it matters because they're never uphold.
  - jurmous 5y ago
    According to United Nations there is the right of self determination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination This should take precedence over national law as it is the international community who decides what in the end is a country. But in this case there was not enough international support as more countries (especially in Europe) didn't want to ignite their local independence movements. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41610863 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41610863
    - elnatro 5y ago
      Note the right for self-determination was defined as such for the colonies. Catalonia has never been a colony. Now, try to secede from the USA and see what happens. Almost all countries have in their Constitutions provisions against secession.
      - jurmous 5y ago
        The right does not refer specifically to being a colony. There are many examples of countries which seceded which were not a colony. The Catalans still have a national day to remember how they were defeated by the Spanish armies and lost their institutions and laws. This will remind them at least yearly that they were once independent. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Catalonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Catalonia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Barcelona_(1713–1714) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Barcelona_(1713–1714) And it is not like there are no secession movements in the USA: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_and_secession_in_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_and_secession_in_Cal... Although I agree the case to be independent must be really strong in the USA for it to work and won't happen soon. And see cases like Taiwan which are still in limbo. In the end it is about acceptance by the international community which will decide what is a country and what not.
        elnatro 5y ago
        Catalans didn’t lose anything, they were part of the Kingdom of Aragon (a part of the Kingdom of Spain), and when Charles II died without heir, there was a civil war against two European families: Bourbon & Habsburg. Castile nobles chose Bourbon while Aragon ones chose Habsburg. The war was not because of some “state rights” or whatever you’d like to say, it was a fight for the Spanish Crown between two European Royal Families. If Aragon nobles chose with such bad luck that they were in the losing side, that’s Human History.
  - weatherlight 5y ago
    https://euobserver.com/opinion/152009 https://euobserver.com/opinion/152009 That's from 2021. the legality isn't in question, what was said was specifically about taxes.
    - elnatro 5y ago
      An opinion piece written by an unknown freelance journalist. Here there are some better sources: [1] 1: https://datosmacro.expansion.com/estado/presupuestos/espana-comunidades-autonomas https://datosmacro.expansion.com/estado/presupuestos/espana-... 2: https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20211013/presupuestos-inversiones-comunidades/2189420.shtml https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20211013/presupuestos-inversion...
      - xondono 5y ago
        If you're going to provide sources, read them first please: (1) lists "Cataluña" as the first in revenue (2) doesn't mention revenue at all, but transfers back to the region.
  - xondono 5y ago
    > Old article. That doesn't make it inaccurate. It's also still true according to Spains own budget so, I don't understand the point. > Please, be advised that the push for independence referendum in 2017 was illegal, as the autonomous communities can’t organize referendums (as per the Spanish Constitution). This has no relevance to the discussion. > Note that the nationalists have made no proposal for a Constitutional change in that way. And this is actually a lie. They did, they compromised to something that could be passed, it got approved, and then it was completely ignored anyway.
elnatro 5y ago
That’s not true. The Community of Madrid gives more money to the central government than Catalonia.

I'm not sure why you are being down voted for saying this. Citation here -> https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/europe/catalan-referendum-explained/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/europe/catalan-referendum-exp...

elnatro 5y ago
Old article. Please, be advised that the push for independence referendum in 2017 was illegal, as the autonomous communities can’t organize referendums (as per the Spanish Constitution). Note that the nationalists have made no proposal for a Constitutional change in that way.
- cronopios 5y ago
  That's simply not true: Spanish Constitution do allow autonomous communities to organize referenda. As a matter of fact, quite a few have been held: * Basque Country, 1979-10-25: Referéndum sobre el proyecto de Estatuto de Autonomía para el País Vasco * Catalonia, 1979-10-25: Referéndum sobre el Estatuto de Autonomía de Cataluña * Andalusia, 1980-02-28: Referéndum sobre la iniciativa del proceso autonómico de Andalucía * Galicia, 1980-12-21: Referendum sobre el Estatuto de Autonomía de Galicia * Andalusia, 1981-10-20: Referéndum sobre el Estatuto de Autonomía de Andalucía * Catalonia, 2006-06-18: Referéndum sobre la reforma del Estatuto de Autonomía de Cataluña * Andalusia, 2007-02-18: Referéndum sobre la reforma del Estatuto de Autonomía de Andalucía
  - elnatro 5y ago
    Those referendums were about constituting the regions as Autonomous Communities (what in USA is an “state”), or about updating their “estatuto de autonomía” (declaration of state). They were not about independence from Spain. Actually, Spain forbids independence clearly in its Constitution, as it is illegal in many other countries, like the USA for example.
    - la_oveja 5y ago
      It also states that every spaniard has the right to a proper house, and yet here we are...
      - harperlee 5y ago
        Doesn't seem to be related to the discussion, does it?
      - elnatro 5y ago
        How is that related to the discussion? Are we going to “cancel” the Constitution?
    - xondono 5y ago
      > Those referendums were about constituting the regions as Autonomous Communities (what in USA is an “state”), or about updating their “estatuto de autonomía” (declaration of state) First, comparing the autonomous communities to states is ludicrous. The legal standing is very different. > updating their “estatuto de autonomía” This is technically part of the Spanish constitution, not that it matters because they're never uphold.
- jurmous 5y ago
  According to United Nations there is the right of self determination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination This should take precedence over national law as it is the international community who decides what in the end is a country. But in this case there was not enough international support as more countries (especially in Europe) didn't want to ignite their local independence movements. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41610863 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41610863
  - elnatro 5y ago
    Note the right for self-determination was defined as such for the colonies. Catalonia has never been a colony. Now, try to secede from the USA and see what happens. Almost all countries have in their Constitutions provisions against secession.
    - jurmous 5y ago
      The right does not refer specifically to being a colony. There are many examples of countries which seceded which were not a colony. The Catalans still have a national day to remember how they were defeated by the Spanish armies and lost their institutions and laws. This will remind them at least yearly that they were once independent. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Catalonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Catalonia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Barcelona_(1713–1714) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Barcelona_(1713–1714) And it is not like there are no secession movements in the USA: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_and_secession_in_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_and_secession_in_Cal... Although I agree the case to be independent must be really strong in the USA for it to work and won't happen soon. And see cases like Taiwan which are still in limbo. In the end it is about acceptance by the international community which will decide what is a country and what not.
      - elnatro 5y ago
        Catalans didn’t lose anything, they were part of the Kingdom of Aragon (a part of the Kingdom of Spain), and when Charles II died without heir, there was a civil war against two European families: Bourbon & Habsburg. Castile nobles chose Bourbon while Aragon ones chose Habsburg. The war was not because of some “state rights” or whatever you’d like to say, it was a fight for the Spanish Crown between two European Royal Families. If Aragon nobles chose with such bad luck that they were in the losing side, that’s Human History.
- weatherlight 5y ago
  https://euobserver.com/opinion/152009 https://euobserver.com/opinion/152009 That's from 2021. the legality isn't in question, what was said was specifically about taxes.
  - elnatro 5y ago
    An opinion piece written by an unknown freelance journalist. Here there are some better sources: [1] 1: https://datosmacro.expansion.com/estado/presupuestos/espana-comunidades-autonomas https://datosmacro.expansion.com/estado/presupuestos/espana-... 2: https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20211013/presupuestos-inversiones-comunidades/2189420.shtml https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20211013/presupuestos-inversion...
    - xondono 5y ago
      If you're going to provide sources, read them first please: (1) lists "Cataluña" as the first in revenue (2) doesn't mention revenue at all, but transfers back to the region.
- xondono 5y ago
  > Old article. That doesn't make it inaccurate. It's also still true according to Spains own budget so, I don't understand the point. > Please, be advised that the push for independence referendum in 2017 was illegal, as the autonomous communities can’t organize referendums (as per the Spanish Constitution). This has no relevance to the discussion. > Note that the nationalists have made no proposal for a Constitutional change in that way. And this is actually a lie. They did, they compromised to something that could be passed, it got approved, and then it was completely ignored anyway.

elnatro 5y ago

That’s not true. The Community of Madrid gives more money to the central government than Catalonia.