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Another language that is kept in life support with the taxes of all the citizens of the country for no clear benefit to the country as a whole.
by iqanq 5y ago
Another language that is kept in life support with the taxes of all the citizens of the country for no clear benefit to the country as a whole.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- agubelu 5y agoApparently, maintaining a historical and cultural element such as a language is not worth spending a neglectable amount of tax money because... it doesn't provide monetary returns?
- iqanq 5y agoNothing that we pay for with our taxes provides a monetary return. That doesn't mean we should waste money, especially in a country like Spain.
- laurensr 5y agoI disagree wholeheartedly. Although an AI engine would probably consider this 'better' and 'more efficient' this doesn't mean it's morally the right thing to do.
- dasloop 5y agoOptimizing other’s culture
- lmm 5y agoIn my experience these movements are populated extensively by parents who won't put in the effort to learn "their" language pushing it on their children. (Speaking as a bitter Welsh guy)
- lbrito 5y ago>especially in a country like Spain Why specially Spain?
- iamacyborg 5y agoTheir economy hasn’t been doing very well.
- ggrrhh_ta 5y agoMaybe referring to the fact that Spain cannot afford spending money on its cultural heritage after having bailed out the banks with between 40 and 100 billion euros (or if those figures (from Wikipedia) are still too controversial, let's say at least a couple of billions only).
- la_oveja 5y agoIt is not wasting money if it helps mantaining cultural heritage. Just because you dont give it value, its not valueless.
- fritztastic 5y ago> especially in a country like Spain. Funny considering Catalonia pays more in taxes than Madrid.
- weatherlight 5y agoI'm not sure why you are being down voted for saying this. Citation here -> https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/europe/catalan-referendum-explained/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/europe/catalan-referendum-exp...
- elnatro 5y agoOld article. Please, be advised that the push for independence referendum in 2017 was illegal, as the autonomous communities can’t organize referendums (as per the Spanish Constitution). Note that the nationalists have made no proposal for a Constitutional change in that way.
- cronopios 5y agoThat's simply not true: Spanish Constitution do allow autonomous communities to organize referenda. As a matter of fact, quite a few have been held: * Basque Country, 1979-10-25: Referéndum sobre el proyecto de Estatuto de Autonomía para el País Vasco * Catalonia, 1979-10-25: Referéndum sobre el Estatuto de Autonomía de Cataluña * Andalusia, 1980-02-28: Referéndum sobre la iniciativa del proceso autonómico de Andalucía * Galicia, 1980-12-21: Referendum sobre el Estatuto de Autonomía de Galicia * Andalusia, 1981-10-20: Referéndum sobre el Estatuto de Autonomía de Andalucía * Catalonia, 2006-06-18: Referéndum sobre la reforma del Estatuto de Autonomía de Cataluña * Andalusia, 2007-02-18: Referéndum sobre la reforma del Estatuto de Autonomía de Andalucía
- elnatro 5y agoThose referendums were about constituting the regions as Autonomous Communities (what in USA is an “state”), or about updating their “estatuto de autonomía” (declaration of state). They were not about independence from Spain. Actually, Spain forbids independence clearly in its Constitution, as it is illegal in many other countries, like the USA for example.
- type0 5y ago> especially in a country like Spain. especially while Spain continues to waste money on entertainment consisting of animal cruelty
- Sporktacular 5y ago"Nothing that we pay for with our taxes provides a monetary return." What? Roads, schools, subsidised healthcare. Even the next sentence is a non-sequitur. You're talking crap.
- nine_k 5y agoEducation or healthcare provide returns which are not directly monetary.
- Sporktacular 5y agoThey provide a monetary return.
- melenaboija 5y agoCould you prove this? Specially education. It seems to me that educated communities bring investments of sectors that need some specific skills.
- Tor3 5y agoMy father was on sick leave for six months waiting for surgery. When he finally reached the start of the queue and got the operation he was back at work the week after, again becoming a taxpayer. Of course it pays to have working healthcare. And it even pays more to have a healthcare system which gets more people back to work as quick as possible. That's so short from "directly monetary" that I don't see the difference.
- harperlee 5y agoOk, a more charitative reading of the parent: it is (badly) referring to the idea that public services are not a bad idea just because they operate at a loss, due to their positive externalities. E.g. a road is a “bad investment” if you only look at direct profit (which is 0 if you dont set up a toll). Obviously they do provide value and that value can often be defined as indirect monetary return. There’s also value for the country that is not easy to monetize in money terms, such as more education helping voters be less manipulable.
- AniseAbyss 5y agoI'd argue that if a language needs to be subsidized its going to die off anyway. But whatever money has been spent on dumber things.
- dereg 5y agoBy this train of logic, Greece should bulldoze the Acropolis and turn it into a hotel.
- cowuser666 5y agoThe Acropolis benefits the nation of Greece significantly. If this is the reductio, I guess the point stands.
- Spooky23 5y agoIt would make a great munitions warehouse.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- fritztastic 5y ago> Another language that is kept in life support with the taxes of all the citizens of the country for no clear benefit to the country as a whole. Just because you don't see the benefit of the language and culture of a distinct region being maintained by its own people, doesn't mean there isn't any. The world would certainly be worse off if we lost all the diversity in it because people only see things in terms of investment/gain but are blind to the richness of allowing people to maintain their heritage. Besides which the only part of the article that mentions taxes is when aomeone mentioned Andorra being an independent nation and paying less taxes to be autonomous than the people of Val d'Aran pay to Spain. Additionally Catalonia, where they speak Catalan, has been trying to separate from Spain. If anything, these languages are not in "life support" at the cost of all the citizens of the nation, they are actually paying more taxes due to being a part of said nation and have all the right to keep their language- especially so given the history of the region when it comes to their treatment by "the country as a whole".
- TacticalCoder 5y ago> Besides which the only part of the article that mentions taxes is when someone mentioned Andorra being an independent nation and paying less taxes to be autonomous than the people of Val d'Aran pay to Spain. Nitpicking: Andorra doesn't "pay tax to be autonomous" to Spain, nor to France for that matters. Andorra is the oldest country in Europe whose borders haven't changed since it was created (1278). It's a tiny country but it's a sovereign country. It has its own parliament and its official language (which is neither spanish nor french but catalan). Andorrans pay less taxes because Andorra is autonomous.
- fritztastic 5y agoThank you for clarifying. English is my second language and grammar is not my strong skill.
- UncleSlacky 5y ago> Andorra is the oldest country in Europe whose borders haven't changed since it was created (1278) San Marino is older, but I'm not sure if its borders have changed.
- xhevahir 5y agoMaybe look on that as compensation for decades of suppression by the central government?
- nekcihc 5y agoWith such chauvinistic attitude there is "no clear benefit" for tourists to visit Spain and leave money, that adds to taxes. There is a Georgian saying for this type of behaviour: do not disgrace your whole nation(with your personal arrogant attitude).
- zeruch 5y agoThen I suppose the planet should just switch en masse to English or Mandarin...you know, for beneficial "efficiency" because that is the sole purpose of human existence.
- lmm 5y agoThis but unironically. Languages are tools for communication. If you want the best future for your children, focus on giving them access to the most widespread languages with the broadest and deepest literary cultures.
- zeruch 5y agoThere are very few languages without depth of tradition, either/and oral or written. And your premise is predicated on "the best future" being an objective standard that all people seek, which is by and large, not the case. I don't disagree with your position in the abstract, but I think its a little too rigid for a world growing both increasingly "small" and contactable in all spaces, yet parochial in terms of people wanting to hold onto their local traditions. The two can in fact coincide, if everyone realizes that seeking total homogeneity isnt that great of a goal, even if it helps 'scaling'.
- mendigou 5y agoI'm curious, are you a native English speaker? I'm not, but I speak 7 languages. I can tell you they are not just "tools for communication". They are expressions of culture and you can see in them how people think. There are things I can say in Spanish that I can't say in German or Japanese, not because of lack of vocabulary (well, that too) but because the concepts just don't translate. And this happens in both directions. Even my behavior changes when I'm speaking some languages. Edit: it goes without saying but I believe that that diversity of cultures is a great thing we should cherish.
- iamacyborg 5y ago> you can see in them how people think. This is something that’s really difficult for folks to comprehend if they don’t speak more than one language but it’s a known phenomenon. https://qz.com/977356/being-bilingual-makes-you-experience-time-differently/ https://qz.com/977356/being-bilingual-makes-you-experience-t...
- gerardvivancos 5y agoHistorically, those taxes had been used to pay for wars and other acts that were used to spread Castillian in regions it was not spoken. Both in the Peninsula and South America. Nowadays, taxpayers money funds institutions that preserve and promote Castillian. Maybe don’t try to kill languages and life support won’t be needed. Also, it makes more sense to spend in preserving something fragile than to promote something already popular and strong. I am inclined to think it is not the taxpayers money that you are after
- overkalix 5y agoA classic of Spanish nationalism: produce laws/actions that create obstacles in the use of other languages, leading to Spanish being overwhelmingly used. Then those asymmetries in use are utilized to justify other laws that further deepen the inequality.
- mchaver 5y agoI think if Spain had taken a more Swiss approach towards federalization and language, it would be a much stronger nation. A lot of regional tension is a result of the central government blocking or overriding local decisions and political parties using non-Castillian identity as a scapegoat.
- cronopios 5y agoI wholeheartedly agree with you! Unfortunately, most don't see it that way. All those partisan attitudes make me sad.