4 ms·

More liberal? Don't make me laugh. EU doesn't even allow free movement or free participation in society anymore unless you give in to "show me your papers pleas

More liberal? Don't make me laugh. EU doesn't even allow free movement or free participation in society anymore unless you give in to "show me your papers please"

peoplefromibiza 5y ago
> EU doesn't even allow free movement or free participation in society anymore unless you give in to "show me your papers please" Please, don't do that, not here. It's stupid.
- wait_a_minute 5y ago
  What’s stupid is what you tolerate there while you say it’s the most liberal place.
  - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
    “Stupid is as stupid does” stop doing it. Illiberal is a nazi attack on the Capitol Hill. What's stupid is tolerate this The city of Los Angeles has seen nearly 400 killings at the end of 2021 Los Angeles has a population of 3.9 million people, in Italy, where I live, in 2021 there have been 277 homicides with a population of 59 million people. To put is simply: LA has over 100 homicide per million, Italy has 4.7 Tolerate that people are being killed on the streets like rats is stupid.
    - wait_a_minute 5y ago
      I'm European too but I'm living in the USA because of what Europe is becoming. It does no good to tout fewer homicides if you're boxed in and can't participate in society unless "papers please" and you know this. That is why you are responding defensively by pointing out relative homicide rates between an entire country (Italy) and a singular American city (LA). The USA broader homicide rate is much lower than that. It's 7.8, not 100. And it's a complicated issue because the USA is not a homogenous population like most of Europe is. It is a melting pot of many ideas and cultures and a wider variance in economic statuses depending on the geography you occupy here. Even so, it's still not much higher than Italy's when considered at the country level. You do not live in a liberal union if you cannot travel freely and participate freely without showing your overlords that they have control over your bodily autonomy. That is contradictory. It is not the most liberal place on earth. The United States is still the most liberal place on earth.
      - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
        > It does no good to tout fewer homicides if you're boxed in and can't participate in society unless "papers please" again: this is a stupid argument. It's not even true. Also: "Here Are The U.S. Cities Where You Need A Covid Vaccine To Dine In A Restaurant" https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlieporterfield/2021/12/22/here-are-the-us-cities-where-you-need-a-covid-vaccine-to-dine-in-a-restaurant/?sh=b19466888218 https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlieporterfield/2021/12/22/he... Mandatory vaccine to go to work https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/11/04/fact-sheet-biden-administration-announces-details-of-two-major-vaccination-policies/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases... > The USA broader homicide rate is much lower than that. It's 7.8, not 100 that's per 100 thousand, not per million. > You do not live in a liberal union if you cannot travel freely and participate freely without showing your overlords that they have control over your bodily autonomy. again: stupid. better safe than dead. you're free to die as you wish, it's not liberal to pose other people at risk because you just don't care. Careless stupidity it's not liberal, it's the most illiberal act a society can tolerate. My US friends are shit-scared of what's going on there. Most of them are musicians, they had more than 90% of their shows canceled due to covid in the past 2 years.
    - helloworld11 5y ago
      The vast majority of murders in most U.S. major cities and in the country as a whole are concentrated in a very small, highly concentrated area of demographic regions, yes, even inside cities. Take these and their socioeconomic factors aside, and the homicide rate plummets for the rest. This is a point that's worth keeping in mind for a highly heterogeneous, "melting pot" country like the U.S that is in many ways quite different from much of Europe. edit: you can verify for yourself my claim about the murders and specific areas for nearly any U.S. city. they're easy to double check. Aside from certain very specific things, the U.S is no less a liberal place than Europe, possibly more so in so many ways.
      - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
        > The vast majority of murders in most U.S. major cities and in the country as a whole are concentrated in a very small, highly concentrated area of demographic regions, yes, even inside cities. that's true everywhere. you don't see many homicides on the Alps here in Italy. The most dangerous city for homicides in Italy is Vibo Valentia (population 33k) at 6 homicides every 100k (still only 60% of LA) Rome is only at 0.5, 12 times less (20 times less than LA, despite a comparable population). It's safe to say that in most neighbourhood in Rome there are zero homicides/year, some areas have seen no homicides in years. Some in decades. Because, as you point out, an average doesn't reflect the situation of single areas of demographic regions. But Vibo Valentia is known for being a city run by the mob ('ndrangheta), a place you don't visit if you come as a tourist, LA is famous for Hollywood and people think it's a glamorous city, while it's actually more dangerous than a mobsters reign in the far south of Italy. There are ~20k homicides every year in the US, >70 times more than in Italy, but the population is only 5 and a half time more than Italy. The fact that homicides in the US are highly clustered, especially in large cities, makes it more dangerous, not less. It happens a lot, to a lot of innocent people. https://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2021/12/03/columbia-university-italian-student-stabbed-to-death_222288e1-66d3-48a9-8954-07903316f452.html https://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2021/12/03/col... Violence is illiberal, by definition.

More liberal? Don't make me laugh. EU doesn't even allow free movement or free participation in society anymore unless you give in to "show me your papers please"

peoplefromibiza 5y ago

> EU doesn't even allow free movement or free participation in society anymore unless you give in to "show me your papers please" Please, don't do that, not here. It's stupid.

wait_a_minute 5y ago
What’s stupid is what you tolerate there while you say it’s the most liberal place.
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  “Stupid is as stupid does” stop doing it. Illiberal is a nazi attack on the Capitol Hill. What's stupid is tolerate this The city of Los Angeles has seen nearly 400 killings at the end of 2021 Los Angeles has a population of 3.9 million people, in Italy, where I live, in 2021 there have been 277 homicides with a population of 59 million people. To put is simply: LA has over 100 homicide per million, Italy has 4.7 Tolerate that people are being killed on the streets like rats is stupid.
  - wait_a_minute 5y ago
    I'm European too but I'm living in the USA because of what Europe is becoming. It does no good to tout fewer homicides if you're boxed in and can't participate in society unless "papers please" and you know this. That is why you are responding defensively by pointing out relative homicide rates between an entire country (Italy) and a singular American city (LA). The USA broader homicide rate is much lower than that. It's 7.8, not 100. And it's a complicated issue because the USA is not a homogenous population like most of Europe is. It is a melting pot of many ideas and cultures and a wider variance in economic statuses depending on the geography you occupy here. Even so, it's still not much higher than Italy's when considered at the country level. You do not live in a liberal union if you cannot travel freely and participate freely without showing your overlords that they have control over your bodily autonomy. That is contradictory. It is not the most liberal place on earth. The United States is still the most liberal place on earth.
    - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
      > It does no good to tout fewer homicides if you're boxed in and can't participate in society unless "papers please" again: this is a stupid argument. It's not even true. Also: "Here Are The U.S. Cities Where You Need A Covid Vaccine To Dine In A Restaurant" https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlieporterfield/2021/12/22/here-are-the-us-cities-where-you-need-a-covid-vaccine-to-dine-in-a-restaurant/?sh=b19466888218 https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlieporterfield/2021/12/22/he... Mandatory vaccine to go to work https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/11/04/fact-sheet-biden-administration-announces-details-of-two-major-vaccination-policies/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases... > The USA broader homicide rate is much lower than that. It's 7.8, not 100 that's per 100 thousand, not per million. > You do not live in a liberal union if you cannot travel freely and participate freely without showing your overlords that they have control over your bodily autonomy. again: stupid. better safe than dead. you're free to die as you wish, it's not liberal to pose other people at risk because you just don't care. Careless stupidity it's not liberal, it's the most illiberal act a society can tolerate. My US friends are shit-scared of what's going on there. Most of them are musicians, they had more than 90% of their shows canceled due to covid in the past 2 years.
  - helloworld11 5y ago
    The vast majority of murders in most U.S. major cities and in the country as a whole are concentrated in a very small, highly concentrated area of demographic regions, yes, even inside cities. Take these and their socioeconomic factors aside, and the homicide rate plummets for the rest. This is a point that's worth keeping in mind for a highly heterogeneous, "melting pot" country like the U.S that is in many ways quite different from much of Europe. edit: you can verify for yourself my claim about the murders and specific areas for nearly any U.S. city. they're easy to double check. Aside from certain very specific things, the U.S is no less a liberal place than Europe, possibly more so in so many ways.
    - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
      > The vast majority of murders in most U.S. major cities and in the country as a whole are concentrated in a very small, highly concentrated area of demographic regions, yes, even inside cities. that's true everywhere. you don't see many homicides on the Alps here in Italy. The most dangerous city for homicides in Italy is Vibo Valentia (population 33k) at 6 homicides every 100k (still only 60% of LA) Rome is only at 0.5, 12 times less (20 times less than LA, despite a comparable population). It's safe to say that in most neighbourhood in Rome there are zero homicides/year, some areas have seen no homicides in years. Some in decades. Because, as you point out, an average doesn't reflect the situation of single areas of demographic regions. But Vibo Valentia is known for being a city run by the mob ('ndrangheta), a place you don't visit if you come as a tourist, LA is famous for Hollywood and people think it's a glamorous city, while it's actually more dangerous than a mobsters reign in the far south of Italy. There are ~20k homicides every year in the US, >70 times more than in Italy, but the population is only 5 and a half time more than Italy. The fact that homicides in the US are highly clustered, especially in large cities, makes it more dangerous, not less. It happens a lot, to a lot of innocent people. https://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2021/12/03/columbia-university-italian-student-stabbed-to-death_222288e1-66d3-48a9-8954-07903316f452.html https://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2021/12/03/col... Violence is illiberal, by definition.