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I think you've articulated what the problems are -- that people are speaking out of anger, not carefully and thoughtfully. Classical activists like Rosa Parks,

I think you've articulated what the problems are -- that people are speaking out of anger, not carefully and thoughtfully. Classical activists like Rosa Parks, MLK, and Frederick Douglass were careful, articulate, and thoughtful -- and they had far more of a positive influence because of it. That's not to say that we should close our ears to people's political expressions, but advocating untenable policy never achieves much good, no matter how much feeling is behind it. We have to move beyond the primal screams and feelings toward thoughtful, articulate, actionable policy that makes good sense and has a net effect of building up society into something good instead of merely tearing it down. It's much harder and more important to build well than to tear down. This is where good education becomes an absolute necessity. Instead of lowering standards and making school easier, we should focus on making it more accessible while keeping standards high. We need articulate, thoughtful, well-read people if we are to achieve a better society; I'm not talking about STEM -- while it's important, STEM helps people do, not think. How many of these modern activists have read Milton, Locke, Hegel, Descartes, or Aristotle? So I see these problems (people talking about "tearing it all down") as primarily a symptom of a lack of good education.

alphabettsy 5y ago
> Classical activists like Rosa Parks, MLK, and Frederick Douglass were careful, articulate, and thoughtful -- and they had far more of a positive influence because of it. If we’re being honest about history it’s because these are the people that some choose to celebrate and elevate. They are certainly worthy of praise and remembrance, but especially with regards to the civil rights movement it was not all of even mostly pretty. Even then some people choose to ignore words from the “articulate” people mentioned that make them feel uncomfortable. I think it’s pretty rich to deny good education and then complain when the neglected don’t speak in the preferred manner. There are plenty of educated and articulate people who have been making the same point for years and nobody listened.
- TimTheTinker 5y ago
  > Even then some people choose to ignore words from the “articulate” people mentioned that make them feel uncomfortable. If you're making good points that contradict what people believe, they'll ridicule or at least ignore you -- that's par for the course. We celebrate people like this because they persevered in doing good in the face of intense opposition. > I think it’s pretty rich to deny good education and then complain when the neglected don’t speak in the preferred manner. I'm not sure what your point is. I am promoting good education - I think the system as-is has to be reformed. People need good education, especially people trying to promote societal reform. > There are plenty of educated and articulate people who have been making the same point for years and nobody listened. For people who are promoting good causes, let's support them and encourage them to persevere despite how difficult it is to continue being ignored and/or persecuted. The truth will prevail in the end: "For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light." (Luke 8:17)
  - PoignardAzur 5y ago
    > If you're making good points that contradict what people believe, they'll ridicule or at least ignore you -- that's par for the course. I think GP is saying people still ignore the point of those very people they're praising. In particular, Republicans (and politicians in general) love quoting MLK, but weirdly, they never seem to remember the "white moderate" quote: > I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” You're making the point that MLK was beloved and effective because he was thoughtful and articulate, but there wasn't a single day in his life that he wasn't disliked by the majority of white americans: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/17/mlk-is-revered-today-but-the-real-king-would-make-white-people-uncomfortable https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/17/mlk-is... What made King popular was dying. So, yes, wagging the finger at people shouting "defund the police!" and pointing to MLK as an alternative is pretty rich.

alphabettsy 5y ago

> Classical activists like Rosa Parks, MLK, and Frederick Douglass were careful, articulate, and thoughtful -- and they had far more of a positive influence because of it. If we’re being honest about history it’s because these are the people that some choose to celebrate and elevate. They are certainly worthy of praise and remembrance, but especially with regards to the civil rights movement it was not all of even mostly pretty. Even then some people choose to ignore words from the “articulate” people mentioned that make them feel uncomfortable. I think it’s pretty rich to deny good education and then complain when the neglected don’t speak in the preferred manner. There are plenty of educated and articulate people who have been making the same point for years and nobody listened.

TimTheTinker 5y ago
> Even then some people choose to ignore words from the “articulate” people mentioned that make them feel uncomfortable. If you're making good points that contradict what people believe, they'll ridicule or at least ignore you -- that's par for the course. We celebrate people like this because they persevered in doing good in the face of intense opposition. > I think it’s pretty rich to deny good education and then complain when the neglected don’t speak in the preferred manner. I'm not sure what your point is. I am promoting good education - I think the system as-is has to be reformed. People need good education, especially people trying to promote societal reform. > There are plenty of educated and articulate people who have been making the same point for years and nobody listened. For people who are promoting good causes, let's support them and encourage them to persevere despite how difficult it is to continue being ignored and/or persecuted. The truth will prevail in the end: "For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light." (Luke 8:17)
- PoignardAzur 5y ago
  > If you're making good points that contradict what people believe, they'll ridicule or at least ignore you -- that's par for the course. I think GP is saying people still ignore the point of those very people they're praising. In particular, Republicans (and politicians in general) love quoting MLK, but weirdly, they never seem to remember the "white moderate" quote: > I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” You're making the point that MLK was beloved and effective because he was thoughtful and articulate, but there wasn't a single day in his life that he wasn't disliked by the majority of white americans: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/17/mlk-is-revered-today-but-the-real-king-would-make-white-people-uncomfortable https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/17/mlk-is... What made King popular was dying. So, yes, wagging the finger at people shouting "defund the police!" and pointing to MLK as an alternative is pretty rich.