4 ms·

An even better aquarium owner wouldn't have them at all. My Octopus Teacher is a fantastic look into the life of an octopus, their intellectual capacity, and t

An even better aquarium owner wouldn't have them at all. My Octopus Teacher is a fantastic look into the life of an octopus, their intellectual capacity, and their propensity to interact with humans.

suifbwish 5y ago
Why would that be better to not have them? It sounds a bit presumptive of a universal morality rather than a logical statement.
- gorgabal 5y ago
  It sounds like a moral statement because it is a moral statement. Nothing wrong with that IMHO .
- procinct 5y ago
  Octopuses are known to not live very long in captivity.
  - girvo 5y ago
    Though they also don’t live long in the wild either. Fascinating creatures.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  It's not an insane idea that octopuses might not enjoy being stuffed into what amounts to a studio apartment for their entire life.
  - DoingIsLearning 5y ago
    They are also notorious for finding increasingly cleverer ways of escaping aquariums. Which again adds to the case that an aquarium is not a suitable environment.
    - Grakel 5y ago
      IDK, their main aquarium is the entire ocean, and they still come up on land.
  - barrenko 5y ago
    Same with dogs and cats. It's just slavery.
- coldtea 5y ago
  >It sounds a bit presumptive of a universal morality rather than a logical statement. Logical statements just by themselves are for Logicians and/or theorem provers. But they're also useless by themselves (just an axiomatic rule sustitution game). To have any value in human life they are combined with utility functions, morality, and other such things.
- girvo 5y ago
  For my purposes, because their short lifespan and particular needs make them pretty bad pets IMO. Never mind the moral arguments for keeping such intelligent animals in captivity.
shard 5y ago
Here is a critique of My Octopus Teacher as a movie of a self-centered man who projects his issues onto an unsuspecting wild animal: "MY OCTOPUS TEACHER & Environmental Horror, An Analysis" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whb4unrhy44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whb4unrhy44
- awb 5y ago
  > a self-centered man Self-centered? I'm assuming you're basing that off of an edited film designed to entertain people and not because you actually know the man. > who projects his issues onto an unsuspecting wild animal Humans tend to project their issues onto unsuspecting things all the time in my experience: partners, co-workers, strangers, pets, etc. And inanimate objects too, if you've ever seen someone slam a door, pound a table or seek guidance from nature. We seem to be driven to share our experience with others. In the film the octopus has no trouble hiding, running away or disappearing when it wants. And likewise, no trouble approaching after it became comfortable with him. And he refuses to intervene when its life is in danger. After these quips, I usually hear the criticism that he was a rich white guy of privilege telling a "woe is me" storyline. If you don't like what the guy represents, fine, but his actions are not that different from many other naturalists who loves to observe animals in the wild.
  - nefitty 5y ago
    In the general sense of media and art consumption, I'm not sure where I stand. Some people refuse to listen to R. Kelly's music. Do his actions as a human change the quality of his output? It's not as if anything can be judged separate from the context within which it arose and the subsequent context within which it was consumed. Another example, is it bad to watch Birth of a Nation? Does it depend on the creator's intent or the broadcaster's intent or the consumer's intent? In a similar way, we can't help but view other beings from within our own subjective frame. The levels of abstractive difference from that octopus to my comment are dizzying. Each individual applies another coat of paint to the canvas. I find research papers bland sometimes, but that is the point. Researchers try to hide their perspective and take on some sort of apreferential objective God view. In that attempt, we get a nutritious, unseasoned chunk of raw tofu. I can eat that sometimes. A lot of the times I want a flavorful, multi-modal umami dish. The person who concocts that sort of meal will inevitably "season to taste". I would be remiss to spit out my first bite, "This is not raw tofu!"
animal531 5y ago
I don't know if that is true. For example dogs have acclimated extremely well to captivity, but on the other hand we know that orcas do extremely poorly. I was watching Clint's Reptiles on Youtube where he's reviewing an octopus staying at an aquarium. It gets all the food it needs, entertainment via puzzles, interaction with the keepers etc. For an octopus it seemed like a very safe and easy life as compared to the wild. Now the real questions would be if whether they prefer to migrate around or stay in one place. If they prefer one safe place, then perhaps given this safe aquarium space they'd choose to stay in it?
- datameta 5y ago
  Dogs have been highly domesticated, but only some smaller breeds are "ok" with not getting regular walks outside. I think it would fall on being able to empirically test whether the animal is content or perhaps even happy. It seems possible to satiate most needs and basic desires but you bring up a good point as to whether we can truly replicate the audiovisual and tactile richness of their usual habitat. Got to thinking about VR for aquatic animals...

An even better aquarium owner wouldn't have them at all. My Octopus Teacher is a fantastic look into the life of an octopus, their intellectual capacity, and their propensity to interact with humans.

suifbwish 5y ago

Why would that be better to not have them? It sounds a bit presumptive of a universal morality rather than a logical statement.

gorgabal 5y ago
It sounds like a moral statement because it is a moral statement. Nothing wrong with that IMHO .
procinct 5y ago
Octopuses are known to not live very long in captivity.
- girvo 5y ago
  Though they also don’t live long in the wild either. Fascinating creatures.
ceejayoz 5y ago
It's not an insane idea that octopuses might not enjoy being stuffed into what amounts to a studio apartment for their entire life.
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago
  They are also notorious for finding increasingly cleverer ways of escaping aquariums. Which again adds to the case that an aquarium is not a suitable environment.
  - Grakel 5y ago
    IDK, their main aquarium is the entire ocean, and they still come up on land.
- barrenko 5y ago
  Same with dogs and cats. It's just slavery.
coldtea 5y ago
>It sounds a bit presumptive of a universal morality rather than a logical statement. Logical statements just by themselves are for Logicians and/or theorem provers. But they're also useless by themselves (just an axiomatic rule sustitution game). To have any value in human life they are combined with utility functions, morality, and other such things.
girvo 5y ago
For my purposes, because their short lifespan and particular needs make them pretty bad pets IMO. Never mind the moral arguments for keeping such intelligent animals in captivity.

shard 5y ago

Here is a critique of My Octopus Teacher as a movie of a self-centered man who projects his issues onto an unsuspecting wild animal: "MY OCTOPUS TEACHER & Environmental Horror, An Analysis" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whb4unrhy44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whb4unrhy44

awb 5y ago
> a self-centered man Self-centered? I'm assuming you're basing that off of an edited film designed to entertain people and not because you actually know the man. > who projects his issues onto an unsuspecting wild animal Humans tend to project their issues onto unsuspecting things all the time in my experience: partners, co-workers, strangers, pets, etc. And inanimate objects too, if you've ever seen someone slam a door, pound a table or seek guidance from nature. We seem to be driven to share our experience with others. In the film the octopus has no trouble hiding, running away or disappearing when it wants. And likewise, no trouble approaching after it became comfortable with him. And he refuses to intervene when its life is in danger. After these quips, I usually hear the criticism that he was a rich white guy of privilege telling a "woe is me" storyline. If you don't like what the guy represents, fine, but his actions are not that different from many other naturalists who loves to observe animals in the wild.
- nefitty 5y ago
  In the general sense of media and art consumption, I'm not sure where I stand. Some people refuse to listen to R. Kelly's music. Do his actions as a human change the quality of his output? It's not as if anything can be judged separate from the context within which it arose and the subsequent context within which it was consumed. Another example, is it bad to watch Birth of a Nation? Does it depend on the creator's intent or the broadcaster's intent or the consumer's intent? In a similar way, we can't help but view other beings from within our own subjective frame. The levels of abstractive difference from that octopus to my comment are dizzying. Each individual applies another coat of paint to the canvas. I find research papers bland sometimes, but that is the point. Researchers try to hide their perspective and take on some sort of apreferential objective God view. In that attempt, we get a nutritious, unseasoned chunk of raw tofu. I can eat that sometimes. A lot of the times I want a flavorful, multi-modal umami dish. The person who concocts that sort of meal will inevitably "season to taste". I would be remiss to spit out my first bite, "This is not raw tofu!"

animal531 5y ago

I don't know if that is true. For example dogs have acclimated extremely well to captivity, but on the other hand we know that orcas do extremely poorly. I was watching Clint's Reptiles on Youtube where he's reviewing an octopus staying at an aquarium. It gets all the food it needs, entertainment via puzzles, interaction with the keepers etc. For an octopus it seemed like a very safe and easy life as compared to the wild. Now the real questions would be if whether they prefer to migrate around or stay in one place. If they prefer one safe place, then perhaps given this safe aquarium space they'd choose to stay in it?

datameta 5y ago
Dogs have been highly domesticated, but only some smaller breeds are "ok" with not getting regular walks outside. I think it would fall on being able to empirically test whether the animal is content or perhaps even happy. It seems possible to satiate most needs and basic desires but you bring up a good point as to whether we can truly replicate the audiovisual and tactile richness of their usual habitat. Got to thinking about VR for aquatic animals...