5 ms·

I'd say ask the Octopi first. Wait, can't do that? But you were about to do it anyway? That's why you can't be friends.

by vanusa 5y ago

Fezzik 5y ago
So you can’t be friends with mute people or people you do not share a language with? There are far more telling ways to determine friendship than someone saying ‘yes, let’s be friends’. Even between those who do speak the same language.
willis936 5y ago
Not all communication is verbal. You can't be [friends in the same way you are friends with humans] an octopus because they are not human. I'm friends with my cat. We have a mutual social relationship and he doesn't speak a lick of English.
- asxd 5y ago
  It is pretty amazing the extent of understanding you can achieve with an animal. After a year or so raising my pup, it feels like we have both picked up certain signals to communicate. He paws at me and then sits by the front door when he needs to go to the bathroom, for instance (although sometimes he cleverly abuses this because he just wants to go outside and play with me during worktime, but I can't fault him for that). I'm sure this is mundane for most people who are dog owners, but being my first dog I couldn't help but be impressed at the level of communication the little guy seems to be capable of. I can't imagine they're the only animals capable of that. It certainly feels like we're friends with a mutual understanding.
  - V-2 5y ago
    Dogs have lived alongside humans for millennia. They're genetically engineered animals (in the oldschool way - by breeding and selection, not in a test tube). And we've bred them largely by rewarding their ability to interact with us. Dogs are obviously quite artificial species in that sense
    - asxd 5y ago
      That's a good point. They've definitely been bred for their ability to communicate with us. I know it's a bit tangential, but I do like the fact we have a kind of sister species in that way. I sometimes wonder what it would be like if our ancestors had instead domesticated another animal to that extent (besides the cat, I suppose). In an alternate universe, maybe we'd have smallish bears as trusted companions :-)
      - hutzlibu 5y ago
        "In an alternate universe, maybe we'd have smallish bears as trusted companions :-)" Some people have even in this universe, but not so many, because they are not easy to handle. And back then having pets, was not so much a hobby - but the dogs were useful for survival. (guarding and hunting)
        MrsPeaches 5y ago
        If you haven’t already seen it, I would highly recommend the film Grizzly Man about someone who lived with bears. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0427312/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0427312/
        asxd 5y ago
        I would imagine wolves weren't to easy domesticate either
        hutzlibu 5y ago
        Not easy, but much more easy, because wolves are pack animals who accept a leader, which can be a human. Bears not so much and therefore much harder to control. Same with cats, which is why they have been kept around to hunt the mice and rats - but only small cats. Also I believe the first dogs did not came from wolves, but other wild dog breeds.
        willis936 5y ago
  - GuB-42 5y ago
    Dogs are the champions of human communication. They are the first domesticated specie, not only they were predisposed to it, being pack animals. But they also had 15000 years of evolution to perfect it. Cats are not to the same level as dogs but they are still very competent domesticated animals. Octopuses, by comparison, are aliens. In fact, someone said that if we want to have an idea of what alien intelligence could look like, look at octopuses. They are intelligent in a very non-human way.
- glxxyz 5y ago
  I like to think I'm friends with my cat but in my heart I know I'm a combination of a roommate and staff.
- endofreach 5y ago
  You should read about experiments where they gave MDMA to octopus who are usually very unsocial… spoiler: it has an effect. They are fascinating animals. They are highly intelligent, but have one big problem: their max. life expectation is about 5 years. Usually the mother dies at birth and they grow up alone from an early age, hence no social development (even to a degree where they are very hostile to other octopus). So they have not a way of building culture like humans, like thr passing on knowledge to the younger generations. Though they kind of have 8 brains. If they didn‘t have these problems, we might be talking differently about them. One day I will open a training area with octopus & invest millions in trying to extend life expectancy & social behaviour of octopuses and train them to take over the world.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  > he doesn't speak a lick of English Nicely done.
michael1999 5y ago
Seems like Kooistra asked in the obvious polite way -- sit down (i.e. render oneself less mobile) at a non-threatening range and let them choose to approach or not. Is that not consent?
dang 5y ago
"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- vanusa 5y ago
  I regret my shallow dismissal of this most thoughtful article. All I can say is: I felt triggered by my recollection all of of the cruel and nonconsensual things our species has enacted upon theirs, since the dawn of time.
  - dang 5y ago
    Understood. It happens.

I'd say ask the Octopi first. Wait, can't do that? But you were about to do it anyway? That's why you can't be friends.

by vanusa 5y ago

I'd say ask the Octopi first. Wait, can't do that? But you were about to do it anyway? That's why you can't be friends.

So you can’t be friends with mute people or people you do not share a language with? There are far more telling ways to determine friendship than someone saying ‘yes, let’s be friends’. Even between those who do speak the same language.

willis936 5y ago

Not all communication is verbal. You can't be [friends in the same way you are friends with humans] an octopus because they are not human. I'm friends with my cat. We have a mutual social relationship and he doesn't speak a lick of English.

asxd 5y ago
It is pretty amazing the extent of understanding you can achieve with an animal. After a year or so raising my pup, it feels like we have both picked up certain signals to communicate. He paws at me and then sits by the front door when he needs to go to the bathroom, for instance (although sometimes he cleverly abuses this because he just wants to go outside and play with me during worktime, but I can't fault him for that). I'm sure this is mundane for most people who are dog owners, but being my first dog I couldn't help but be impressed at the level of communication the little guy seems to be capable of. I can't imagine they're the only animals capable of that. It certainly feels like we're friends with a mutual understanding.
- V-2 5y ago
  Dogs have lived alongside humans for millennia. They're genetically engineered animals (in the oldschool way - by breeding and selection, not in a test tube). And we've bred them largely by rewarding their ability to interact with us. Dogs are obviously quite artificial species in that sense
  - asxd 5y ago
    That's a good point. They've definitely been bred for their ability to communicate with us. I know it's a bit tangential, but I do like the fact we have a kind of sister species in that way. I sometimes wonder what it would be like if our ancestors had instead domesticated another animal to that extent (besides the cat, I suppose). In an alternate universe, maybe we'd have smallish bears as trusted companions :-)
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      "In an alternate universe, maybe we'd have smallish bears as trusted companions :-)" Some people have even in this universe, but not so many, because they are not easy to handle. And back then having pets, was not so much a hobby - but the dogs were useful for survival. (guarding and hunting)
      - MrsPeaches 5y ago
        If you haven’t already seen it, I would highly recommend the film Grizzly Man about someone who lived with bears. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0427312/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0427312/
      - asxd 5y ago
        I would imagine wolves weren't to easy domesticate either
        hutzlibu 5y ago
        Not easy, but much more easy, because wolves are pack animals who accept a leader, which can be a human. Bears not so much and therefore much harder to control. Same with cats, which is why they have been kept around to hunt the mice and rats - but only small cats. Also I believe the first dogs did not came from wolves, but other wild dog breeds.
        willis936 5y ago
- GuB-42 5y ago
  Dogs are the champions of human communication. They are the first domesticated specie, not only they were predisposed to it, being pack animals. But they also had 15000 years of evolution to perfect it. Cats are not to the same level as dogs but they are still very competent domesticated animals. Octopuses, by comparison, are aliens. In fact, someone said that if we want to have an idea of what alien intelligence could look like, look at octopuses. They are intelligent in a very non-human way.
glxxyz 5y ago
I like to think I'm friends with my cat but in my heart I know I'm a combination of a roommate and staff.
endofreach 5y ago
You should read about experiments where they gave MDMA to octopus who are usually very unsocial… spoiler: it has an effect. They are fascinating animals. They are highly intelligent, but have one big problem: their max. life expectation is about 5 years. Usually the mother dies at birth and they grow up alone from an early age, hence no social development (even to a degree where they are very hostile to other octopus). So they have not a way of building culture like humans, like thr passing on knowledge to the younger generations. Though they kind of have 8 brains. If they didn‘t have these problems, we might be talking differently about them. One day I will open a training area with octopus & invest millions in trying to extend life expectancy & social behaviour of octopuses and train them to take over the world.
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
> he doesn't speak a lick of English Nicely done.

michael1999 5y ago

Seems like Kooistra asked in the obvious polite way -- sit down (i.e. render oneself less mobile) at a non-threatening range and let them choose to approach or not. Is that not consent?

dang 5y ago

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

vanusa 5y ago
I regret my shallow dismissal of this most thoughtful article. All I can say is: I felt triggered by my recollection all of of the cruel and nonconsensual things our species has enacted upon theirs, since the dawn of time.
- dang 5y ago
  Understood. It happens.