5 ms·

That is surprising. One of the frustrating things about cancers is that nobody knows the cancer's growth rate, how long from stage 1 to stage 2 etc, when in re

That is surprising. One of the frustrating things about cancers is that nobody knows the cancer's growth rate, how long from stage 1 to stage 2 etc, when in reality they are just categories, aka "if you have cancerous cells from your liver in your neck, then its stage 4". The problem with this is that no interval of preventative testing can be rationalized. You don't know if once a decade, or once a year, or using your privilege to get tests every 3 months would yield any help in early detection at all! The medical professionals don't know either. "Cancer" is obviously too broad, but even if you have a history of a particular type of cancer in your lineage, you're still at the same issue. We don't know if one cell flips to cancerous and defeats your body's defenses for reproduction all the way to stage 4 within 2 weeks, or whether it is over years. Knowing that the contributing mutation can be 30-50 years prior is really helpful, and can help doctors authorize the use of their medical facilities more pointedly, while researchers continue to isolate and make peer-reviewable preventative measures that the holistic naturopaths can never do (because they don't do peer review, there may and has been accidentally salvagable parts of their form of medicine).

chasil 5y ago
I think that finding a cancerous liver cell in your neck means metastasis is happening, and the slow process is assumed to be complete. Unless the immune system is attacking these cells and their numbers are controlled, this would be stage 4 (while I am not a physician, let alone an oncologist). I think that the best weapon that the general public has against cancer is autophagy, triggered by keeping blood glucose very low at least some of the time. Metabolic changes that can awaken apoptosis might kill many of these mutation carriers.
- vmception 5y ago
  > I think that finding a cancerous liver cell in your neck means metastasis is happening, and the slow process is assumed to be complete. To me thats what I said, that's what stage 4 means, metastasized. > I think that the best weapon that the general public has against cancer is autophagy One can wish
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    > One can wish It's not really a wish anymore. There are studies showing this, but I'm too busy to find them for you. Rhonda Patrick at https://www.foundmyfitness.com/ https://www.foundmyfitness.com/ has interviews with various researchers on this topic. Here are some, but this is by no means exhaustive: https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/autophagy-and-cancer-a-crucial-role-in-immunosurveillance-and-chemotherapeutic-treatment https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/autophagy-and-cancer... https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/cancer-manipulates-systems-autophagy https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/cancer-manipulates-s... https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/caloric-restriction-mimetics-in-aging-improved-cancer-chemotherapy-autophagy-anti-obesity-effect https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/caloric-restriction-... My layman understanding is that healthy cells can withstand the rigors of fasting and fasting-mimicking, but many cancer cells cannot. They die.
- Jimmc414 5y ago
  >I think that the best weapon that the general public has against cancer is autophagy, triggered by keeping blood glucose very low at least some of the time. Metabolic changes that can awaken apoptosis might kill many of these mutation carriers. Since fasting is the best way to induce autophagy, that could explain the apparent negative correlation between cancer rate and a country's food supply [.] http://globalcancermap.com/ http://globalcancermap.com/ [.] https://ourworldindata.org/food-supply https://ourworldindata.org/food-supply
  - vmception 5y ago
    no, thats explained at how young people die, also related to a country’s food and water supply Africa’s average age is half of North America’s, and after controlling for infant mortality still so few other people make it to the much higher life expectancy limit (which is still 10-15 years lower than North America) there that there isnt opportunity for cancer diagnosis to rear up as often! Let alone be tested for cancer to understand if that was an ailment or contributing comorbidity.
    - appletrotter 5y ago
      Makes sense, but can you prove it?
      - vmception 5y ago
        which parts? you really want me to provide sources on average age as well as life expectancy? you don't know the accepted consensuses on why societies in the continent of Africa operate in abysmal conditions to support human life uninterrupted? I don't think I'm compelled to provide that but I'm open to counter theories
        appletrotter 5y ago
        The counter theory is the comment that OP made. Your response opens with a denial of OPs theory; this response would be more effective with citations. Your theory makes sense, but I just don't see why it has to be mutually exclusive. Maybe they're both factors to varying degrees?
- rsync 5y ago
  "I think that the best weapon that the general public has against cancer is autophagy" It would be but it's so, so, ever so hard, to go without even one single meal. I've stopped evangelizing "fasting" or even shorter intake windows. If you can't be bothered to skip breakfast for a few weeks just to see how your body responds then let's stop wasting our time and just talk about football or something. ... how 'bout them Cowboys ?!
  - coldtea 5y ago
    >It would be but it's so, so, ever so hard, to go without even one single meal. Huh? You'd be surprised...
    - sersi 5y ago
      I think it really depends on people, I've never had issues skipping breakfast and lunch. When I'm busy enough I will forget to eat easily. But I know a lot of people who cannot skip a single meal and get irritated or angry.
      - coldtea 5y ago
        >But I know a lot of people who cannot skip a single meal and get irritated or angry. I think they just need to get used to some poverty for a while.
      - tremon 5y ago
        True, but I'd posit that the irritation and anger are effectively withdrawal symptoms; eating to avoid those symptoms is similar to keep lighting cigarettes because your hands tremble when you go without. (Of course, it's not that black&white, and not eating at all will quickly deteriorate your health -- I'm just saying that hangriness is not the same as hunger, and learning to differentiate between the two is important)
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
dumb1224 5y ago
I'm not a cancer biologist but I work in the field of supporting cancer research and targeted therapy. My naive take is: the type of mutation and its effect on cancer progression is still being studied heavily. A lot of the understanding of biological pathways and functional impacts of these mutations are being updated and very conservatively corrected. From a systems biology point of view, the whole body is so mechanistically complex in its response to environmental and internal stress that it's a bit difficult to predict outcome / prognosis. Important cancer pathways are well studied and are usually involved in disease progression but it is still very tissue type / biomarker categorisation specific. The real driver mutations are being discovered for each cancer type but the ultimate goal is be able to see the big picture.
mlyle 5y ago
> The problem with this is that no interval of preventative testing can be rationalized. You don't know if once a decade, or once a year, or using your privilege to get tests every 3 months would yield any help in early detection at all! Actually, you can study these things and see what it does to outcomes, and professionals have. There's benefits from more frequent screening (and harms, too!). The benefits are tempered by a cancer manifesting at stage 4 could mean: * You got unlucky with the screening interval and it showed up inbetween, or * You have a really aggressive cancer that went from stage 1 to stage 4 in a small fraction of the screening interval. The latter is interesting: if you are screening at an interval, the later stage cancers you find are, on average, more aggressive and faster growing. In turn, spotting them earlier doesn't necessarily lead to better outcomes. That is: part of the reason why "finding cancer earlier" is associated with better outcomes is that it's easier to find less aggressive cancers earlier.
- vmception 5y ago
  That’s an interesting take supporting more screening. Just having more data points for yourself and the collective conscious as well as increasing your luck.

chasil 5y ago

I think that finding a cancerous liver cell in your neck means metastasis is happening, and the slow process is assumed to be complete. Unless the immune system is attacking these cells and their numbers are controlled, this would be stage 4 (while I am not a physician, let alone an oncologist). I think that the best weapon that the general public has against cancer is autophagy, triggered by keeping blood glucose very low at least some of the time. Metabolic changes that can awaken apoptosis might kill many of these mutation carriers.

vmception 5y ago
> I think that finding a cancerous liver cell in your neck means metastasis is happening, and the slow process is assumed to be complete. To me thats what I said, that's what stage 4 means, metastasized. > I think that the best weapon that the general public has against cancer is autophagy One can wish
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  > One can wish It's not really a wish anymore. There are studies showing this, but I'm too busy to find them for you. Rhonda Patrick at https://www.foundmyfitness.com/ https://www.foundmyfitness.com/ has interviews with various researchers on this topic. Here are some, but this is by no means exhaustive: https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/autophagy-and-cancer-a-crucial-role-in-immunosurveillance-and-chemotherapeutic-treatment https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/autophagy-and-cancer... https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/cancer-manipulates-systems-autophagy https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/cancer-manipulates-s... https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/caloric-restriction-mimetics-in-aging-improved-cancer-chemotherapy-autophagy-anti-obesity-effect https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/caloric-restriction-... My layman understanding is that healthy cells can withstand the rigors of fasting and fasting-mimicking, but many cancer cells cannot. They die.
Jimmc414 5y ago
>I think that the best weapon that the general public has against cancer is autophagy, triggered by keeping blood glucose very low at least some of the time. Metabolic changes that can awaken apoptosis might kill many of these mutation carriers. Since fasting is the best way to induce autophagy, that could explain the apparent negative correlation between cancer rate and a country's food supply [.] http://globalcancermap.com/ http://globalcancermap.com/ [.] https://ourworldindata.org/food-supply https://ourworldindata.org/food-supply
- vmception 5y ago
  no, thats explained at how young people die, also related to a country’s food and water supply Africa’s average age is half of North America’s, and after controlling for infant mortality still so few other people make it to the much higher life expectancy limit (which is still 10-15 years lower than North America) there that there isnt opportunity for cancer diagnosis to rear up as often! Let alone be tested for cancer to understand if that was an ailment or contributing comorbidity.
  - appletrotter 5y ago
    Makes sense, but can you prove it?
    - vmception 5y ago
      which parts? you really want me to provide sources on average age as well as life expectancy? you don't know the accepted consensuses on why societies in the continent of Africa operate in abysmal conditions to support human life uninterrupted? I don't think I'm compelled to provide that but I'm open to counter theories
      - appletrotter 5y ago
        The counter theory is the comment that OP made. Your response opens with a denial of OPs theory; this response would be more effective with citations. Your theory makes sense, but I just don't see why it has to be mutually exclusive. Maybe they're both factors to varying degrees?
rsync 5y ago
"I think that the best weapon that the general public has against cancer is autophagy" It would be but it's so, so, ever so hard, to go without even one single meal. I've stopped evangelizing "fasting" or even shorter intake windows. If you can't be bothered to skip breakfast for a few weeks just to see how your body responds then let's stop wasting our time and just talk about football or something. ... how 'bout them Cowboys ?!
- coldtea 5y ago
  >It would be but it's so, so, ever so hard, to go without even one single meal. Huh? You'd be surprised...
  - sersi 5y ago
    I think it really depends on people, I've never had issues skipping breakfast and lunch. When I'm busy enough I will forget to eat easily. But I know a lot of people who cannot skip a single meal and get irritated or angry.
    - coldtea 5y ago
      >But I know a lot of people who cannot skip a single meal and get irritated or angry. I think they just need to get used to some poverty for a while.
    - tremon 5y ago
      True, but I'd posit that the irritation and anger are effectively withdrawal symptoms; eating to avoid those symptoms is similar to keep lighting cigarettes because your hands tremble when you go without. (Of course, it's not that black&white, and not eating at all will quickly deteriorate your health -- I'm just saying that hangriness is not the same as hunger, and learning to differentiate between the two is important)
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]

dumb1224 5y ago

I'm not a cancer biologist but I work in the field of supporting cancer research and targeted therapy. My naive take is: the type of mutation and its effect on cancer progression is still being studied heavily. A lot of the understanding of biological pathways and functional impacts of these mutations are being updated and very conservatively corrected. From a systems biology point of view, the whole body is so mechanistically complex in its response to environmental and internal stress that it's a bit difficult to predict outcome / prognosis. Important cancer pathways are well studied and are usually involved in disease progression but it is still very tissue type / biomarker categorisation specific. The real driver mutations are being discovered for each cancer type but the ultimate goal is be able to see the big picture.

mlyle 5y ago

> The problem with this is that no interval of preventative testing can be rationalized. You don't know if once a decade, or once a year, or using your privilege to get tests every 3 months would yield any help in early detection at all! Actually, you can study these things and see what it does to outcomes, and professionals have. There's benefits from more frequent screening (and harms, too!). The benefits are tempered by a cancer manifesting at stage 4 could mean: * You got unlucky with the screening interval and it showed up inbetween, or * You have a really aggressive cancer that went from stage 1 to stage 4 in a small fraction of the screening interval. The latter is interesting: if you are screening at an interval, the later stage cancers you find are, on average, more aggressive and faster growing. In turn, spotting them earlier doesn't necessarily lead to better outcomes. That is: part of the reason why "finding cancer earlier" is associated with better outcomes is that it's easier to find less aggressive cancers earlier.

vmception 5y ago
That’s an interesting take supporting more screening. Just having more data points for yourself and the collective conscious as well as increasing your luck.