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Simply put, outside of the coasts, Software Engineers don't make nearly as much as you seem to think they do. "After a year in software engineering, you should

Simply put, outside of the coasts, Software Engineers don't make nearly as much as you seem to think they do. "After a year in software engineering, you should have at least a year's living expenses saved up"? What world are you living in? Been in software nearly 10 years now. There is no way in any universe that after year 1 I would have had living expenses for a _whole year_ saved up. At a base salary of $30k starting (10 years ago, mind you), with rent at $1.5k/mo, that doesn't leave too much after taxes for savings after existing expenses, let alone being able to save up an entire year's worth of those living expenses on that salary. At the time I started, in my area, $30K/yr was the average, btw. So yes, your comment was _incredibly_ detached from reality.

Jach 5y ago
Thanks, that at least gives a basis for finding agreeable qualifiers to make a weaker claim. One of them is: if your first year was any time in the last n years... Is there an agreeable n? Salaries have gone up outside of the coasts. A quick search found https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewdepietro/2019/05/21/software-developer-salary-state/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewdepietro/2019/05/21/softw... showing data from 2018 (split between "of systems software" and "of applications software"), with the lowest average for applications wage being Wyoming at $72k and systems wage being Pennsylvania at $60k. The latter is interesting since Pennsylvania ranks 25 for "applications" at $96k. (Amusingly I also found https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-Software-Engineer-Salary-by-State https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-So... which puts Wyoming as the highest at $107k and Texas near the bottom at $80k; I'm pretty skeptical of that data though beyond it only supposedly coming from ADP.) Anecdotally, in Utah there are startups as of two years ago offering $200k/yr, but I've got friends there working at unsexy places like the water company or on library software. I think the lowest-earning friend is somewhere around $80k/yr and refuses to consider looking around. 10 years ago out here in the Seattle region, in 2012 I worked at a mostly-two-man startup with a mix of part-time/full-time for $20/hr. If that was full time it'd have been $41k/yr, but it wasn't, so I didn't have a year saved up when we dissolved. Nevertheless I did have enough saved up that with the additional support of some student loans I could mostly wrap up my schooling in 2013 without working even during the off periods. In 2014 I started my first non-startup job and would have been happy with $80k but instead I got $110k, which less than two years later would be a typical starting salary for the one lower "Associate" tier roles used for entry-level incomers with truly no prior experience beyond maybe an internship. Having previously made $15/hr ($31k/yr if full time, which again it wasn't) during 2010/2011 I do at least understand how hard it can be to save up at that level, so I'm not going to attempt arguing that at $30k/yr and $1500/mo in rent it's somehow straightforward. At that time I split an apartment but circumstances led to me paying the whole thing for a while at around $800/mo, then I moved to a rental house with 3 other people but only paid $550/mo. Rents have only gone up and currently I pay $1750/mo; I can't imagine tolerating $1500/mo at $30k. What was wrong with your area to have such high rents and such low salaries? Given all that, I'm committed at least to being more careful with my qualifications in the future and I'll try to avoid making such broad claims. Would you accept a weaker claim that "After a year in software engineering in one of the hot areas like coastal cities or Austin, ..."? I don't really want to weaken it that far, since I think salaries have risen enough elsewhere in the last, say, 6 years, that I'd rather make the weaker claim "After a year in software engineering if you've started in the last 6 years...". Is there any n of years you'd agree with, or is it still primarily location-based to you? I also may need to make a qualifier to indicate some sort of funded or longer-established company and not an unfunded garage-style lean startup. I did leave a qualification in my original statement but that hasn't been argued with and I'll keep it (i.e. the possibility of a suspiciously low salary that may need to be addressed first; my friend making around $80k despite working at the same place for many years is near this category, since area salaries around them have gone up quite a bit, however in their case it's not enough on its own to preclude huge savings given the area's living expenses).
- l30n4da5 5y ago
  > "After a year in software engineering in one of the hot areas like coastal cities or Austin, ..." Honestly, that would make a lot more sense. If you even qualified it and said "After a year at today's salaries, as a single adult with no dependents" it would make so much more sense. > In 2014 I started my first non-startup job and would have been happy with $80k but instead I got $110k I'm 10 years into the tech field (3 years software automation engineer, 7 years dev) and still haven't even touched your _starting_ salary of 110k. Currently a Lead Software Engineer making just under 100. Living expenses have gone up significantly with children, though, and with the housing market being what it is.

Jach 5y ago

Thanks, that at least gives a basis for finding agreeable qualifiers to make a weaker claim. One of them is: if your first year was any time in the last n years... Is there an agreeable n? Salaries have gone up outside of the coasts. A quick search found https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewdepietro/2019/05/21/software-developer-salary-state/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewdepietro/2019/05/21/softw... showing data from 2018 (split between "of systems software" and "of applications software"), with the lowest average for applications wage being Wyoming at $72k and systems wage being Pennsylvania at $60k. The latter is interesting since Pennsylvania ranks 25 for "applications" at $96k. (Amusingly I also found https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-Software-Engineer-Salary-by-State https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-So... which puts Wyoming as the highest at $107k and Texas near the bottom at $80k; I'm pretty skeptical of that data though beyond it only supposedly coming from ADP.) Anecdotally, in Utah there are startups as of two years ago offering $200k/yr, but I've got friends there working at unsexy places like the water company or on library software. I think the lowest-earning friend is somewhere around $80k/yr and refuses to consider looking around. 10 years ago out here in the Seattle region, in 2012 I worked at a mostly-two-man startup with a mix of part-time/full-time for $20/hr. If that was full time it'd have been $41k/yr, but it wasn't, so I didn't have a year saved up when we dissolved. Nevertheless I did have enough saved up that with the additional support of some student loans I could mostly wrap up my schooling in 2013 without working even during the off periods. In 2014 I started my first non-startup job and would have been happy with $80k but instead I got $110k, which less than two years later would be a typical starting salary for the one lower "Associate" tier roles used for entry-level incomers with truly no prior experience beyond maybe an internship. Having previously made $15/hr ($31k/yr if full time, which again it wasn't) during 2010/2011 I do at least understand how hard it can be to save up at that level, so I'm not going to attempt arguing that at $30k/yr and $1500/mo in rent it's somehow straightforward. At that time I split an apartment but circumstances led to me paying the whole thing for a while at around $800/mo, then I moved to a rental house with 3 other people but only paid $550/mo. Rents have only gone up and currently I pay $1750/mo; I can't imagine tolerating $1500/mo at $30k. What was wrong with your area to have such high rents and such low salaries? Given all that, I'm committed at least to being more careful with my qualifications in the future and I'll try to avoid making such broad claims. Would you accept a weaker claim that "After a year in software engineering in one of the hot areas like coastal cities or Austin, ..."? I don't really want to weaken it that far, since I think salaries have risen enough elsewhere in the last, say, 6 years, that I'd rather make the weaker claim "After a year in software engineering if you've started in the last 6 years...". Is there any n of years you'd agree with, or is it still primarily location-based to you? I also may need to make a qualifier to indicate some sort of funded or longer-established company and not an unfunded garage-style lean startup. I did leave a qualification in my original statement but that hasn't been argued with and I'll keep it (i.e. the possibility of a suspiciously low salary that may need to be addressed first; my friend making around $80k despite working at the same place for many years is near this category, since area salaries around them have gone up quite a bit, however in their case it's not enough on its own to preclude huge savings given the area's living expenses).

l30n4da5 5y ago
> "After a year in software engineering in one of the hot areas like coastal cities or Austin, ..." Honestly, that would make a lot more sense. If you even qualified it and said "After a year at today's salaries, as a single adult with no dependents" it would make so much more sense. > In 2014 I started my first non-startup job and would have been happy with $80k but instead I got $110k I'm 10 years into the tech field (3 years software automation engineer, 7 years dev) and still haven't even touched your _starting_ salary of 110k. Currently a Lead Software Engineer making just under 100. Living expenses have gone up significantly with children, though, and with the housing market being what it is.