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I've heard this more lately and can't square it with what I had understood about those super long-lived cultures; like in Italy or Japan, where supposedly they

I've heard this more lately and can't square it with what I had understood about those super long-lived cultures; like in Italy or Japan, where supposedly they drink moderate amounts of alcohol approximately daily.

acomjean 5y ago
There are so many factors that effect health its really hard to isolate one. I think moderation is key to preventing one of these things from having an undue large effect. grandmother (Irish/English) drank and smoked a lot, she lived to her mid-nineties. She had a relatively stress free existence though. But she's one person and without an identical twin control, its hard to tell how much better she might have been had she abstained.
- flippyhead 5y ago
  But that's why I thought these studies of long-lived _cultrures_ were significant. These things, including moderate alcohol consumption, which are common to multiple very different large groups that live longer than average.
Swenrekcah 5y ago
Generally, doing things in moderation is way better than going to extremes. Drinking moderately as a culture may be correlated with eating moderately, exercising moderately, etc. In any case it has always seemed clear to me that studies showing beneficial effects of moderate alcohol consumption are heavily influenced by some combination of paying interest-groups and the researchers really wanting to justify a daily beer/wine glass. The clearest evidence for me that a glass a day can not possibly be healthy is the effect just a single glass has on athletic performance the next day. For the record I do drink and have for a long time, but have no illusions about the negative effects.
- flippyhead 5y ago
  I definitely see why you'd be suspicious. But on the other hand, the Okinawa Japanese are definitely one of those groups that DOES live really long and DOES drink moderately. I've traveled extremely widely, used to live in Japan, and (sure, anecdotally) it feels reasonable.
  - Swenrekcah 5y ago
    I don't doubt they live long and prosper, but attributing it to moderate alcohol consumption rather than anything else seems suspicious.
burke 5y ago
There's no doubt that alcohol in excess is very bad for a person. There's enough doubt about whether light-moderate alcohol consumption (i.e. a small glass of red wine with dinner and two or three once in a while with friends) is harmful or protective that it seems pretty clear that, whether the net effect is positive or negative, it's not terribly strong. We get really hung up on whether something is "good for you" or "bad for you", without focusing as much as we should on exactly how bad it is: we just want to sort things into either the "good" bucket or the "bad" bucket and feel the corresponding dose of pride or guilt.
tsol 5y ago
I've heard of having a glass of wine in meals in Italy, but does Japan really have a culture of daily drinking? Either way, that brings up use patterns. Here we tend to binge drink, with the purpose of getting drunk. That's not the same in such cultures. They have a much more moderate view of alcohol. A glass of wine and shots are two very different things

acomjean 5y ago

There are so many factors that effect health its really hard to isolate one. I think moderation is key to preventing one of these things from having an undue large effect. grandmother (Irish/English) drank and smoked a lot, she lived to her mid-nineties. She had a relatively stress free existence though. But she's one person and without an identical twin control, its hard to tell how much better she might have been had she abstained.

flippyhead 5y ago
But that's why I thought these studies of long-lived _cultrures_ were significant. These things, including moderate alcohol consumption, which are common to multiple very different large groups that live longer than average.

Swenrekcah 5y ago

Generally, doing things in moderation is way better than going to extremes. Drinking moderately as a culture may be correlated with eating moderately, exercising moderately, etc. In any case it has always seemed clear to me that studies showing beneficial effects of moderate alcohol consumption are heavily influenced by some combination of paying interest-groups and the researchers really wanting to justify a daily beer/wine glass. The clearest evidence for me that a glass a day can not possibly be healthy is the effect just a single glass has on athletic performance the next day. For the record I do drink and have for a long time, but have no illusions about the negative effects.

flippyhead 5y ago
I definitely see why you'd be suspicious. But on the other hand, the Okinawa Japanese are definitely one of those groups that DOES live really long and DOES drink moderately. I've traveled extremely widely, used to live in Japan, and (sure, anecdotally) it feels reasonable.
- Swenrekcah 5y ago
  I don't doubt they live long and prosper, but attributing it to moderate alcohol consumption rather than anything else seems suspicious.

burke 5y ago

There's no doubt that alcohol in excess is very bad for a person. There's enough doubt about whether light-moderate alcohol consumption (i.e. a small glass of red wine with dinner and two or three once in a while with friends) is harmful or protective that it seems pretty clear that, whether the net effect is positive or negative, it's not terribly strong. We get really hung up on whether something is "good for you" or "bad for you", without focusing as much as we should on exactly how bad it is: we just want to sort things into either the "good" bucket or the "bad" bucket and feel the corresponding dose of pride or guilt.

tsol 5y ago

I've heard of having a glass of wine in meals in Italy, but does Japan really have a culture of daily drinking? Either way, that brings up use patterns. Here we tend to binge drink, with the purpose of getting drunk. That's not the same in such cultures. They have a much more moderate view of alcohol. A glass of wine and shots are two very different things