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I'm always skeptical of reasoning that runs, "This spiritual practice, which requires long learning and dedicated practice, has been shown to offer these benefi

I'm always skeptical of reasoning that runs, "This spiritual practice, which requires long learning and dedicated practice, has been shown to offer these benefits. You can get them now using this one weird trick!" It sounds Calvinist and curmudgeonly, but I really don't think there's a shortcut to spiritual improvement: you get what you work for.

jacobmartin 5y ago
I agree with you. I'm sure that meditation, psychotherapy, contemplative prayer, possibly even drug use, whatever, have benefits. I'm just also sure that it takes quite a bit of dedication, introspection, and time to get there. As an aside, isn't "you get what you work for" quite literally the opposite of Calvinism? At least, it seems to go against every element of TULIP?
- JasonFruit 5y ago
  The opposite of Calvinist ideas about salvation, yes, but very much in line with culturally-Calvinist ideas about how to live your life. No branch of Christianity can be reduced to its soteriology without distorting it beyond recognition.
  - jacobmartin 5y ago
    That's very interesting. I grew up in a Baptist Church, where 'Calvinist' and 'Arminian' described intra-denominational differences so the 'Calvinists' were broadly similar to the non-Calvinists in pretty much all beliefs except the TULIPy ones. It makes sense there would be greater differences in other denominations.
    - JasonFruit 5y ago
      If you want an interesting and distinct Baptist set of beliefs and practices, the Primitive Baptists are fascinating. They were a prominent group of Baptists in the early part of the nineteenth century in America, but their resolution not to embrace the missions movement cost them much popularity. Calvinist in the broad outlines of their theology, but a lot of significant differences that I think are a little more intellectually consistent. There are still a small number out there.
zafka 5y ago
Richard Alpert (Ram Dass) Talked about this idea in a way that made a lot of sense to me. He stated (roughly) that the LSD experience gives you a glimpse of what can be found through extensive spiritual practice. After the first few "trips" a person is just entertaining themselves- Real growth and insight comes from the practice- The shortcut is a great way to point the way, but do not use the sign as an end goal.

jacobmartin 5y ago

I agree with you. I'm sure that meditation, psychotherapy, contemplative prayer, possibly even drug use, whatever, have benefits. I'm just also sure that it takes quite a bit of dedication, introspection, and time to get there. As an aside, isn't "you get what you work for" quite literally the opposite of Calvinism? At least, it seems to go against every element of TULIP?

JasonFruit 5y ago
The opposite of Calvinist ideas about salvation, yes, but very much in line with culturally-Calvinist ideas about how to live your life. No branch of Christianity can be reduced to its soteriology without distorting it beyond recognition.
- jacobmartin 5y ago
  That's very interesting. I grew up in a Baptist Church, where 'Calvinist' and 'Arminian' described intra-denominational differences so the 'Calvinists' were broadly similar to the non-Calvinists in pretty much all beliefs except the TULIPy ones. It makes sense there would be greater differences in other denominations.
  - JasonFruit 5y ago
    If you want an interesting and distinct Baptist set of beliefs and practices, the Primitive Baptists are fascinating. They were a prominent group of Baptists in the early part of the nineteenth century in America, but their resolution not to embrace the missions movement cost them much popularity. Calvinist in the broad outlines of their theology, but a lot of significant differences that I think are a little more intellectually consistent. There are still a small number out there.

zafka 5y ago

Richard Alpert (Ram Dass) Talked about this idea in a way that made a lot of sense to me. He stated (roughly) that the LSD experience gives you a glimpse of what can be found through extensive spiritual practice. After the first few "trips" a person is just entertaining themselves- Real growth and insight comes from the practice- The shortcut is a great way to point the way, but do not use the sign as an end goal.