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> That is why I stress that the Norway situation was so critical. With Norway in Allied hands Sweden would have acted very differently. Even more so, it was al

> That is why I stress that the Norway situation was so critical. With Norway in Allied hands Sweden would have acted very differently. Even more so, it was all decided in September 1939. If the French went out and attacked Germans like they promised they would, Stalin would never join the war (he waited for full 17 days before moving into Poland, to make sure the Allies will be the cowards he and Hitler predicted they were), and Germans would be tied with fighting on two fronts. Hitler was actually super-nervous about the attack on Poland - he bet it all on has a hunch the French and British won't do anything about it, which was a massive risk for him.

panick21_ 5y ago
Well, yes but the issue is that the French never wanted to fight that offensive war. They had not planned for it very well, the British were not gone be there in any numbers. Not even the Royal Airforce. And if you are gone put up a fight for Eastern Europe, then why do it for Poland, it would have been 100x smarter to it over Czechoslovakia. Germany was in a terrible supply situation at that point. The Allies had no way to help Poland other then an attack the other side. Unlike Norway where the Allies were perfectly positioned to provide help. So my opinion is that you either fight over Czechoslovakia or you leave Eastern Europe and focus on keeping Germany out of the North and try to keep Italy from joining them. The 'alliance' between Germany and the Soviets wouldn't hold very long. In that time you can build up your forces. Eventually Germany would probably force the situation with the Soviets and then the Allies are in control of the global supply routes and can basically decide who wins. Basically its 3 groups, France/Britain, Germany, Soviet. The one best positioned is the one that stays out of the war when the other two go to the war. The one that stays out can build up its army and industry while the others destroy each other. You end up the winner by default. The Soviets were that in 1940, but surprisingly for them France collapsed quickly and the German could turn around and attack them. Soviet strategy since 2022 was basically to keep Germany out of the 'capitalist' alliance, only for them to supply Germany with the vary resources they used to build an army to attack them. World War 2 has so many strange turns.
- Karlsonn 5y ago
  Perhaps to make WW2 less strange, think of alliances as British/Russian group vs. French/German group with US participating at the end on the British/Russian side. The Finns were German allies throughout. The pre-war Germans were supplied by Nordic steel while during the war they were supplied by French wheat. The British/Russians were supplied by US tech, food, and arms
  - panick21_ 5y ago
    > The Finns were German allies throughout. No they were not as Germany had very much agree not to get involved as the Soviets beat up the Finns. Despite popular opinion on Germany very much wanting to do so. > Perhaps to make WW2 less strange, think of alliances as British/Russian group Yeah but the Brits were about to launch an attack on Russia in late 1939. In total all the events between 1936 and 1947 are quite the diplomatic clusterfuck.
    - Karlsonn 5y ago
      The Finnish leader was Hitler's best friend, sharing his ideology and offering him military support during the siege of Leningrad. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustaf_Emil_Mannerheim https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustaf_Emil_Mannerheim It took until 2018 for the swastika to be removed from the Finnish air force logo. As for the British invading USSR, this could not be a serious consideration since the British military strength is mostly navy and air force but no ground troops.
      - panick21_ 5y ago
        The British planned on bombing Baku, the principle oil fields that was vital for Soviet economy. And the planned on sending troupes to Finland. Finland has to take friends where they could find them. They used Germany to get back their land but only supported them as far as they needed to. The Fins could have done way more, and Germany was constantly pissed that they couldn't convince them to do more. Mannerheim dealt with Hitler as a statement mostly. The recording doesn't prove they were friends. Its a discussion about military that does not sound that different from many other such meeting between Stalin and Allied officials.
ptaipale 5y ago
The French did attack within a week of the attack on Poland, using dozens of divisions and tanks and artillery, and came up with about 2000 casualties against 600 on the German side. But the French had not even fully mobilised by the time in mid-September when the Soviets joined in the attack against Poland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saar_Offensive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saar_Offensive

panick21_ 5y ago

Well, yes but the issue is that the French never wanted to fight that offensive war. They had not planned for it very well, the British were not gone be there in any numbers. Not even the Royal Airforce. And if you are gone put up a fight for Eastern Europe, then why do it for Poland, it would have been 100x smarter to it over Czechoslovakia. Germany was in a terrible supply situation at that point. The Allies had no way to help Poland other then an attack the other side. Unlike Norway where the Allies were perfectly positioned to provide help. So my opinion is that you either fight over Czechoslovakia or you leave Eastern Europe and focus on keeping Germany out of the North and try to keep Italy from joining them. The 'alliance' between Germany and the Soviets wouldn't hold very long. In that time you can build up your forces. Eventually Germany would probably force the situation with the Soviets and then the Allies are in control of the global supply routes and can basically decide who wins. Basically its 3 groups, France/Britain, Germany, Soviet. The one best positioned is the one that stays out of the war when the other two go to the war. The one that stays out can build up its army and industry while the others destroy each other. You end up the winner by default. The Soviets were that in 1940, but surprisingly for them France collapsed quickly and the German could turn around and attack them. Soviet strategy since 2022 was basically to keep Germany out of the 'capitalist' alliance, only for them to supply Germany with the vary resources they used to build an army to attack them. World War 2 has so many strange turns.

Karlsonn 5y ago
Perhaps to make WW2 less strange, think of alliances as British/Russian group vs. French/German group with US participating at the end on the British/Russian side. The Finns were German allies throughout. The pre-war Germans were supplied by Nordic steel while during the war they were supplied by French wheat. The British/Russians were supplied by US tech, food, and arms
- panick21_ 5y ago
  > The Finns were German allies throughout. No they were not as Germany had very much agree not to get involved as the Soviets beat up the Finns. Despite popular opinion on Germany very much wanting to do so. > Perhaps to make WW2 less strange, think of alliances as British/Russian group Yeah but the Brits were about to launch an attack on Russia in late 1939. In total all the events between 1936 and 1947 are quite the diplomatic clusterfuck.
  - Karlsonn 5y ago
    The Finnish leader was Hitler's best friend, sharing his ideology and offering him military support during the siege of Leningrad. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustaf_Emil_Mannerheim https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustaf_Emil_Mannerheim It took until 2018 for the swastika to be removed from the Finnish air force logo. As for the British invading USSR, this could not be a serious consideration since the British military strength is mostly navy and air force but no ground troops.
    - panick21_ 5y ago
      The British planned on bombing Baku, the principle oil fields that was vital for Soviet economy. And the planned on sending troupes to Finland. Finland has to take friends where they could find them. They used Germany to get back their land but only supported them as far as they needed to. The Fins could have done way more, and Germany was constantly pissed that they couldn't convince them to do more. Mannerheim dealt with Hitler as a statement mostly. The recording doesn't prove they were friends. Its a discussion about military that does not sound that different from many other such meeting between Stalin and Allied officials.

ptaipale 5y ago

The French did attack within a week of the attack on Poland, using dozens of divisions and tanks and artillery, and came up with about 2000 casualties against 600 on the German side. But the French had not even fully mobilised by the time in mid-September when the Soviets joined in the attack against Poland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saar_Offensive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saar_Offensive