4 ms·

Since the old have done nothing to help the young (quite the opposite in fact) that will be an uphill struggle.

pcrh 5y ago
>the old have done nothing to help the young I suppose all those babies paid for their own housing, food, education, healthcare and vacations for up to 25 years before they were productive members of society?
- yardie 5y ago
  If you borrow it from them then yes they pay for it.
  - pcrh 5y ago
    Who borrows money from babies?
    - slivanes 5y ago
      National debt.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - yardie 5y ago
      Politicians. It's one thing to issue bonds to pay for much needed infrastructure at the time. It's quite another thing to issue bonds to pay the interest on existing bonds. Our governments have kicked the can since the 80s. If you issue a 20 or 30 year bond you are saying I'm not paying for this, but kids born today are definitely good for it. Not all debt is bad but our government is using it poorly. A 30 year bond on a bridge with 60 year lifespan is good debt. A 30 year bond on 2 expensive, 20 year wars with no positive objective is bad debt.
      - pcrh 5y ago
        That's not quite the same argument as implied by the previous statement "the old have done nothing to help the young". Said argument reminds of Monty Python's "What have the Romans ever done for us".
fxtentacle 5y ago
I've heard a similar sentiment recently. "I'll start respecting the elderly when they stop bothering me with their email problems."
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  It's more like I'll have capacity to help the elderly when I've paid off the huge student loans they dumped on me, got a house in the ridiculous market they setup and found a job worth having in the labour market they built...
  - fxtentacle 5y ago
    That, too. My uncle could buy his house for 3 months of salary. It was cheap and made from wood and he had to put in lots of work to make it nice, but good luck just buying the land nowadays for that price. That said, the horrible housing market is in my opinion mostly due to foreign mafia/dictator/oligarch investment through shell companies. The most expensive areas in London are all sold, but empty...
    - LatteLazy 5y ago
      Yeah, you're not wrong especially in places like London (also based there). But the voter block that vetos changing that is OAPs...
    - throwaway91822 5y ago
      > due to foreign mafia/dictator/oligarch investment through shell companies True, but this was allowed to happen by the current and old generation of voters.
- throwaway91822 5y ago
  I thought it was about destroying the planet and enabling the ever-growing financial inequality.
michaelt 5y ago
Well, we western youth have certainly inherited a huge national debt, crumbling infrastructure, an upcoming climate catastrophe, a political system in deadlock, and geopolitical rivals of vast and rising power. No doubt about that. But old people did manage to produce a first-world country as successful as any other, get their language spoken all over the globe, vastly increase college education (which they thought was doing the young a favour), build a tech sector that pays wages considered ridiculous everywhere else on the planet, create the internet and basically give it away for free, give birth to and raise us, have much less racism and sexism than there were a few generations ago (although they both remain very real problems), avoid any wars that couldn't be fought with an all-volunteer military, and avoid destroying the world with nuclear weapons - something that seemed as inevitable, in its day, as global warming is today. Thinking the old have done _nothing_ betrays something of an ignorance of history IMHO.
- jaclaz 5y ago
  Nitpick, but by "we western youth" you mean "we American youth" or even more probably "we US youth". West in world context is not just the USA.
  - michaelt 5y ago
    I was deliberately unspecific. It's true that (e.g.) France hasn't reaped the benefits of getting their language spoken all over the globe, but they certainly have increased college education, the internet, and no major wars. And they also managed to introduce other benefits, like quality healthcare for all.
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  Most of the positives you list were achieved by people long dead. The generation that fought WW2 are now (at least) 95. They have my respect. Below them are a much much bigger block of 60+ old people. They dedicated their lives to the opposite: narrowing educational access,destroying the generous labour market they inherited, stopping people accessing housing, some are even trying to reintroduce Nazi-ism.
micromacrofoot 5y ago
if we can’t help each other without getting something out of it then we’re doomed to be like this forever
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  You're not wrong. But that isn't the only issue. It is also true that if we keep helping people who give nothing back, well just end up with lots of people who give nothing back... Personally I think the correct line here is personal responsibility and fairness. OAPs have have had huge opportunitied. Until we've given the same to everyone else, they can wait.

pcrh 5y ago

>the old have done nothing to help the young I suppose all those babies paid for their own housing, food, education, healthcare and vacations for up to 25 years before they were productive members of society?

yardie 5y ago
If you borrow it from them then yes they pay for it.
- pcrh 5y ago
  Who borrows money from babies?
  - slivanes 5y ago
    National debt.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - yardie 5y ago
    Politicians. It's one thing to issue bonds to pay for much needed infrastructure at the time. It's quite another thing to issue bonds to pay the interest on existing bonds. Our governments have kicked the can since the 80s. If you issue a 20 or 30 year bond you are saying I'm not paying for this, but kids born today are definitely good for it. Not all debt is bad but our government is using it poorly. A 30 year bond on a bridge with 60 year lifespan is good debt. A 30 year bond on 2 expensive, 20 year wars with no positive objective is bad debt.
    - pcrh 5y ago
      That's not quite the same argument as implied by the previous statement "the old have done nothing to help the young". Said argument reminds of Monty Python's "What have the Romans ever done for us".

fxtentacle 5y ago

I've heard a similar sentiment recently. "I'll start respecting the elderly when they stop bothering me with their email problems."

LatteLazy 5y ago
It's more like I'll have capacity to help the elderly when I've paid off the huge student loans they dumped on me, got a house in the ridiculous market they setup and found a job worth having in the labour market they built...
- fxtentacle 5y ago
  That, too. My uncle could buy his house for 3 months of salary. It was cheap and made from wood and he had to put in lots of work to make it nice, but good luck just buying the land nowadays for that price. That said, the horrible housing market is in my opinion mostly due to foreign mafia/dictator/oligarch investment through shell companies. The most expensive areas in London are all sold, but empty...
  - LatteLazy 5y ago
    Yeah, you're not wrong especially in places like London (also based there). But the voter block that vetos changing that is OAPs...
  - throwaway91822 5y ago
    > due to foreign mafia/dictator/oligarch investment through shell companies True, but this was allowed to happen by the current and old generation of voters.
throwaway91822 5y ago
I thought it was about destroying the planet and enabling the ever-growing financial inequality.

michaelt 5y ago

Well, we western youth have certainly inherited a huge national debt, crumbling infrastructure, an upcoming climate catastrophe, a political system in deadlock, and geopolitical rivals of vast and rising power. No doubt about that. But old people did manage to produce a first-world country as successful as any other, get their language spoken all over the globe, vastly increase college education (which they thought was doing the young a favour), build a tech sector that pays wages considered ridiculous everywhere else on the planet, create the internet and basically give it away for free, give birth to and raise us, have much less racism and sexism than there were a few generations ago (although they both remain very real problems), avoid any wars that couldn't be fought with an all-volunteer military, and avoid destroying the world with nuclear weapons - something that seemed as inevitable, in its day, as global warming is today. Thinking the old have done _nothing_ betrays something of an ignorance of history IMHO.

jaclaz 5y ago
Nitpick, but by "we western youth" you mean "we American youth" or even more probably "we US youth". West in world context is not just the USA.
- michaelt 5y ago
  I was deliberately unspecific. It's true that (e.g.) France hasn't reaped the benefits of getting their language spoken all over the globe, but they certainly have increased college education, the internet, and no major wars. And they also managed to introduce other benefits, like quality healthcare for all.
LatteLazy 5y ago
Most of the positives you list were achieved by people long dead. The generation that fought WW2 are now (at least) 95. They have my respect. Below them are a much much bigger block of 60+ old people. They dedicated their lives to the opposite: narrowing educational access,destroying the generous labour market they inherited, stopping people accessing housing, some are even trying to reintroduce Nazi-ism.

micromacrofoot 5y ago

if we can’t help each other without getting something out of it then we’re doomed to be like this forever

LatteLazy 5y ago
You're not wrong. But that isn't the only issue. It is also true that if we keep helping people who give nothing back, well just end up with lots of people who give nothing back... Personally I think the correct line here is personal responsibility and fairness. OAPs have have had huge opportunitied. Until we've given the same to everyone else, they can wait.