5 ms·

I buy the argument that tracks are often overproduced and lack any rawness, edge, or soul, but there are absolutely popular artists that can sing. Not all of th

I buy the argument that tracks are often overproduced and lack any rawness, edge, or soul, but there are absolutely popular artists that can sing. Not all of them, but enough of them.

WalterBright 5y ago
Ok, where is today's Whitney Houston? Man, what a voice! Ditto for David Cassidy. I even saw a documentary on autotune where a music executive remarked that they don't look for great singers anymore, because the sound engineers can "fix" it. They look for pretty people. Like the Monkees. I shudder to think what a modern sound engineer would do to "fix" Robert Plant's totally unique voice.
- deng 5y ago
  > Ok, where is today's Whitney Houston? In the mainstream: Adele, Sia, Ariana Grande, just to name a few. > I even saw a documentary on autotune where a music executive remarked that they don't look for great singers anymore, because the sound engineers can "fix" it. They look for pretty people. That was never different. Madonna is an absolute terrible singer, for instance, and that was fixed long before autotune existed. For recording, you just make heave use of vocal comping. Live, you can use a combination of (soft) playback and background singers. But at least Pop was never about "perfect" voices, but unique, recognizable voices that can convey emotion, and that hasn't really changed. Bowie, Björk, Leonard Cohen, Thom Yorke, Damon Albarn, these are simply great voices, but they can barely hold a tone.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    I understand the appeal of unusual voices (Stevie Nicks), but they aren't what I'm talking about. Madonna has great tone.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    > Adele https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3ASj1L6_sY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3ASj1L6_sY The tone sounds manipulated to me. There's a weird effect I hear a lot these days that seems to remove the smoothness. > Sai https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW6-0PhCkGs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW6-0PhCkGs Lots of electronic effects applied. > Ariana Grande https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcYodQoapMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcYodQoapMg obvious autotune > Madonna Why do you say she was terrible? Are you listening to the stuff she did in the 80's, or now? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s__rX_WL100 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s__rX_WL100 This video shows her tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79fzeNUqQbQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79fzeNUqQbQ
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      For comparison, here's Whitney Houston: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH3giaIzONA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH3giaIzONA
    - deng 5y ago
      If you'd look at live recordings, you see that these women are great singers, whereas Madonna cannot hold a tone for a second. Madonna would never have had a chance as a singer without a ton of studio equipment. So what you are actually complaining is how modern music is produced. I can certainly agree that autotune is overused nowadays. That's a fad that will go away eventually, just like the talk box, gated reverbs or heavy chorus effects.
      - WalterBright 5y ago
        I'm interested in a link to where Madonna (in her prime in the 80s) can't hold a tone. > So what you are actually complaining is how modern music is produced. Well, sure. That's what I hear. To hear good singing, I have to go back to the 80s and earlier. I still don't hear anything that can compete with the singers I listed. I listened to the singers you suggested. Listen to the links I suggested :-)
        deng 5y ago
        > I'm interested in a link to where Madonna (in her prime in the 80s) can't hold a tone. https://youtu.be/KrG8okV9R3w?t=724 https://youtu.be/KrG8okV9R3w?t=724 The early Madonna stuff is really easy to sing, and she's really struggling. She has no control over her breathing and does the usual tricks to compensate: finish early and let the background singers take over, vocal fry, "squeeking" and other kinds of ornamentations to avoid holding notes. She clearly has had no formal training whatsoever at that point. Which is fine. As I said, this is pop, good singing is overrated, other stuff is much more important, and I actually vastly prefer Madonna over Whitney Houston any time of the day.
        WalterBright 5y ago
- masklinn 5y ago
  There’s plenty of great singers out there, plenty of mostly or completely acoustic groups. But you have to look for them, they’re not chart toppers, they haven’t been for more than a generation. If you’re not looking for them and are just waiting for them to be spoon-fed to you, well of course you’re not going to get them. It’s not what sells and majors can polish the product in post, so that’s what they do, as with movies, they have no reason not to. And with the rise of modern tech and social medias, they don’t need to sign up to majors to make their art and a living (though they’ll often associate with such for publishing e.g. Collier is self-produced and has the personal label Haganja but partners with Geffen - universal - and Decca).
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    > There’s plenty of great singers out there, plenty of mostly or completely acoustic groups. But you have to look for them, they’re not chart toppers, they haven’t been for more than a generation. Exactly. They're out of fashion.
    - masklinn 5y ago
      Which is a very different proposition than the original assertion that modern singers can’t sing, or that autotune is “killing music”.
      - WalterBright 5y ago
        Not at all. A great singer laboring in obscurity with only a dozen fans doesn't count. Bell-bottom jeans are out of fashion, too. They might as well not exist today.
        masklinn 5y ago
        That... makes absolutely no sense. We're in a golden age for music creation, you don't even need a garage and a band to get started (though it certainly helps for the more complex acts or if you want a band), people like Bo Burnham and Jacob Collier got their start (and part of their early fame) making youtube videos at home. And probably most importantly you have no need whatsoever to be "discovered" by an "agent" or somesuch, you can have viewers and listeners from the other side of the globe, from your room. I mean just look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcVEx6UrtF8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcVEx6UrtF8 That's a teenager in england (skillfully) playing with dissonant harmony in split-screen multitrack. The top commenter is a californian who'd go on to found Patreon the following month (or had founded it a month after the video was posted, youtube doesn't show exact dates for comments).
- sgaduuw 5y ago
  Good sound engineers know when not to mess with good voices. Problem is that there's so few of them these days that they need autotune
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    Oh, but they do mess with it. I don't know, for example, if Adele is a great singer or not, because her voice is messed with by the sound engineers.

I buy the argument that tracks are often overproduced and lack any rawness, edge, or soul, but there are absolutely popular artists that can sing. Not all of them, but enough of them.

WalterBright 5y ago

Ok, where is today's Whitney Houston? Man, what a voice! Ditto for David Cassidy. I even saw a documentary on autotune where a music executive remarked that they don't look for great singers anymore, because the sound engineers can "fix" it. They look for pretty people. Like the Monkees. I shudder to think what a modern sound engineer would do to "fix" Robert Plant's totally unique voice.

deng 5y ago
> Ok, where is today's Whitney Houston? In the mainstream: Adele, Sia, Ariana Grande, just to name a few. > I even saw a documentary on autotune where a music executive remarked that they don't look for great singers anymore, because the sound engineers can "fix" it. They look for pretty people. That was never different. Madonna is an absolute terrible singer, for instance, and that was fixed long before autotune existed. For recording, you just make heave use of vocal comping. Live, you can use a combination of (soft) playback and background singers. But at least Pop was never about "perfect" voices, but unique, recognizable voices that can convey emotion, and that hasn't really changed. Bowie, Björk, Leonard Cohen, Thom Yorke, Damon Albarn, these are simply great voices, but they can barely hold a tone.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  I understand the appeal of unusual voices (Stevie Nicks), but they aren't what I'm talking about. Madonna has great tone.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > Adele https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3ASj1L6_sY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3ASj1L6_sY The tone sounds manipulated to me. There's a weird effect I hear a lot these days that seems to remove the smoothness. > Sai https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW6-0PhCkGs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW6-0PhCkGs Lots of electronic effects applied. > Ariana Grande https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcYodQoapMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcYodQoapMg obvious autotune > Madonna Why do you say she was terrible? Are you listening to the stuff she did in the 80's, or now? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s__rX_WL100 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s__rX_WL100 This video shows her tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79fzeNUqQbQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79fzeNUqQbQ
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    For comparison, here's Whitney Houston: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH3giaIzONA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH3giaIzONA
  - deng 5y ago
    If you'd look at live recordings, you see that these women are great singers, whereas Madonna cannot hold a tone for a second. Madonna would never have had a chance as a singer without a ton of studio equipment. So what you are actually complaining is how modern music is produced. I can certainly agree that autotune is overused nowadays. That's a fad that will go away eventually, just like the talk box, gated reverbs or heavy chorus effects.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      I'm interested in a link to where Madonna (in her prime in the 80s) can't hold a tone. > So what you are actually complaining is how modern music is produced. Well, sure. That's what I hear. To hear good singing, I have to go back to the 80s and earlier. I still don't hear anything that can compete with the singers I listed. I listened to the singers you suggested. Listen to the links I suggested :-)
      - deng 5y ago
        > I'm interested in a link to where Madonna (in her prime in the 80s) can't hold a tone. https://youtu.be/KrG8okV9R3w?t=724 https://youtu.be/KrG8okV9R3w?t=724 The early Madonna stuff is really easy to sing, and she's really struggling. She has no control over her breathing and does the usual tricks to compensate: finish early and let the background singers take over, vocal fry, "squeeking" and other kinds of ornamentations to avoid holding notes. She clearly has had no formal training whatsoever at that point. Which is fine. As I said, this is pop, good singing is overrated, other stuff is much more important, and I actually vastly prefer Madonna over Whitney Houston any time of the day.
        WalterBright 5y ago
masklinn 5y ago
There’s plenty of great singers out there, plenty of mostly or completely acoustic groups. But you have to look for them, they’re not chart toppers, they haven’t been for more than a generation. If you’re not looking for them and are just waiting for them to be spoon-fed to you, well of course you’re not going to get them. It’s not what sells and majors can polish the product in post, so that’s what they do, as with movies, they have no reason not to. And with the rise of modern tech and social medias, they don’t need to sign up to majors to make their art and a living (though they’ll often associate with such for publishing e.g. Collier is self-produced and has the personal label Haganja but partners with Geffen - universal - and Decca).
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > There’s plenty of great singers out there, plenty of mostly or completely acoustic groups. But you have to look for them, they’re not chart toppers, they haven’t been for more than a generation. Exactly. They're out of fashion.
  - masklinn 5y ago
    Which is a very different proposition than the original assertion that modern singers can’t sing, or that autotune is “killing music”.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      Not at all. A great singer laboring in obscurity with only a dozen fans doesn't count. Bell-bottom jeans are out of fashion, too. They might as well not exist today.
      - masklinn 5y ago
        That... makes absolutely no sense. We're in a golden age for music creation, you don't even need a garage and a band to get started (though it certainly helps for the more complex acts or if you want a band), people like Bo Burnham and Jacob Collier got their start (and part of their early fame) making youtube videos at home. And probably most importantly you have no need whatsoever to be "discovered" by an "agent" or somesuch, you can have viewers and listeners from the other side of the globe, from your room. I mean just look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcVEx6UrtF8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcVEx6UrtF8 That's a teenager in england (skillfully) playing with dissonant harmony in split-screen multitrack. The top commenter is a californian who'd go on to found Patreon the following month (or had founded it a month after the video was posted, youtube doesn't show exact dates for comments).
sgaduuw 5y ago
Good sound engineers know when not to mess with good voices. Problem is that there's so few of them these days that they need autotune
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Oh, but they do mess with it. I don't know, for example, if Adele is a great singer or not, because her voice is messed with by the sound engineers.