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I wonder why your thought process goes towards locking people up more to help poor people, rather than to help poor people not be poor. Countries with less crim

I wonder why your thought process goes towards locking people up more to help poor people, rather than to help poor people not be poor. Countries with less crime tend to have less poverty. If you want to reduce crime, reduce poverty. Putting people into prison makes them (and their families) poorer. Should we put violent criminals into prison? Yes. Should we put shoplifters into prison? Probably not. Most of the sentencing and prosecution changes that have been coming through are for crimes that are generally considered minor: shoplifting, drug possession, etc. The reason you believe otherwise is because of police propaganda. A lot of their crime numbers are linked to these arrests, because these arrests are easy, safe, and require little to no investigation. The drug arrests tend to be associated with their profit centers too (traffic stops). They have a strong incentive to lie to you about these changes, because their jobs are tied to it.

kepler1 5y ago
I think your sense of reasonable argument has gone out the window, so I'm not likely to spend much more time answering here. I support helping people out of poverty. However, it will take decades. In the meantime, no more prosecuting of minor crimes, huh? That's sure to send some great signals to people who might be tempted to commit crimes. And to the people who obey laws. How about people who shoplift try not shoplifting, to help avoid making their families poorer by staying out of prison for those and other crimes? Who knows whether you understand this idea. It seems that you rather sympathize with someone who commits crime rather than the 100x people in the same community who obey the laws and have to pay to clean up after that crime. And you occupy some reverse-logic-world where people committing crimes are being treated to some perverse injustice by being caught for those crimes. It's an insult to the law-abiding poor person who pays in full for their purchases that you seem to care more about the shoplifter. That you're so eager to let the person jumping the turnstile not be punished, while the elderly pensioner scrimps and saves to pay her subway fare dutifully. Watch out for the backlash against what you think your policies are doing. And btw I don't consume propaganda or get swayed by messaging. I don't believe what people say, of either side. I believe what they do.
- ryan_lane 5y ago
  You don't know that you consume propaganda, but you obviously do. We all do. You're missing the point and making this a moralistic debate, rather than one based on the best outcome. Yes, people shouldn't shoplift. They shouldn't speed either. I'm also not suggesting that we don't punish minor crimes, only that we don't put people in prison for doing them. The punishment simply doesn't fit the crime. Prison is a life ender for most people. If you have a felony on your record, you can't get most jobs. It can make it harder to find good apartments. It makes it more likely they're commit more serious crimes later, because we're effectively forcing people into lifelong poverty. In terms of turnstyles: get rid of them. Make public transportation free. No more turnstyle jumpers. A lot of shoplifting is due to people not having enough money to buy things: increase minimum wage and make education free so that people can get better jobs. You're advocating for more punishment, which makes you feel better, but doesn't improve society. I'm advocating for improving society, which will reduce crime.

kepler1 5y ago

I think your sense of reasonable argument has gone out the window, so I'm not likely to spend much more time answering here. I support helping people out of poverty. However, it will take decades. In the meantime, no more prosecuting of minor crimes, huh? That's sure to send some great signals to people who might be tempted to commit crimes. And to the people who obey laws. How about people who shoplift try not shoplifting, to help avoid making their families poorer by staying out of prison for those and other crimes? Who knows whether you understand this idea. It seems that you rather sympathize with someone who commits crime rather than the 100x people in the same community who obey the laws and have to pay to clean up after that crime. And you occupy some reverse-logic-world where people committing crimes are being treated to some perverse injustice by being caught for those crimes. It's an insult to the law-abiding poor person who pays in full for their purchases that you seem to care more about the shoplifter. That you're so eager to let the person jumping the turnstile not be punished, while the elderly pensioner scrimps and saves to pay her subway fare dutifully. Watch out for the backlash against what you think your policies are doing. And btw I don't consume propaganda or get swayed by messaging. I don't believe what people say, of either side. I believe what they do.

ryan_lane 5y ago
You don't know that you consume propaganda, but you obviously do. We all do. You're missing the point and making this a moralistic debate, rather than one based on the best outcome. Yes, people shouldn't shoplift. They shouldn't speed either. I'm also not suggesting that we don't punish minor crimes, only that we don't put people in prison for doing them. The punishment simply doesn't fit the crime. Prison is a life ender for most people. If you have a felony on your record, you can't get most jobs. It can make it harder to find good apartments. It makes it more likely they're commit more serious crimes later, because we're effectively forcing people into lifelong poverty. In terms of turnstyles: get rid of them. Make public transportation free. No more turnstyle jumpers. A lot of shoplifting is due to people not having enough money to buy things: increase minimum wage and make education free so that people can get better jobs. You're advocating for more punishment, which makes you feel better, but doesn't improve society. I'm advocating for improving society, which will reduce crime.