5 ms·

I completely understand what you mean by this, and what bothers me the most is that this is problem should be entirely avoidable. Pleaes correct me if I'm wrong

I completely understand what you mean by this, and what bothers me the most is that this is problem should be entirely avoidable. Pleaes correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of a single technical reason why "a non iphone in a group chat" has to cause such infuriating levels of inconvenience for everyone involved. Someone had to put explicit effort into making it as unbearable as it is. The only reason I can think of is Apple using a dominant position in a network in order to sabotage alternatives.

notriddle 5y ago
RCS is great. They should have done it ten years ago. Sure, ten years ago it probably didn’t seem to matter, but the iPhone 5 already bumped the screen size from 3.5in to 4in the rear camera was already 1080p, and “phablets” were already a term in 2012. It was totally foreseeable that MMS size limits where going to be a problem, if they weren’t already! What a great case of skating where the puck is, instead of skating where it’s headed. RCS existed as a spec, just not implemented by carriers. The fact that Apple, and even Google, are routing around their MMS servers is totally their fault.
giantrobot 5y ago
> Pleaes correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of a single technical reason why "a non iphone in a group chat" has to cause such infuriating levels of inconvenience for everyone involved. SMS/MMS is the lowest common denominator for non-Messages devices. So including a non-Messages device in a group chat means the whole chat needs to be downgraded to SMS. Even if Apple added support for RCS tomorrow, group chats would need to downgrade to it and lose E2EE and rely on the participants carriers to deliver messages just like with SMS. There's no good way for Apple to integrate the shit show of non-Messages protocols in a sane way. Carriers made a mess of RCS in the design, implementation, and deployment. Google has had to run their own RCS backend to allow Android users to actually use RCS thanks to the carriers' bungling and meddling. Even they haven't helped the situation with a decade of half-starts in messaging apps. Blaming Apple is a bit ridiculous. They're not going to spend a billion dollars fixing the problems created by carriers and Google when they already have their own messaging system.
- pmontra 5y ago
  They created their own messaging system and let SMSes enter it. You can't send an SMS to a WhatsApp group. Problem solved. Of course you can install WhatsApp on any phone but you can't install iMessage on Android so maybe Apple had to let SMSes in.
  - giantrobot 5y ago
    > They created their own messaging system and let SMSes enter it. Apple supported SMS before iMessage/Messages existed. Their Messages app didn't even support MMS until iOS 3. It didn't gain the iMessage functionality until iOS 5. Apple supports the global standards of SMS/MMS. Their own Messages service can be disabled entirely so a phone will only send SMS/MMS messages. Just about any phone able to connect to an extant cellular network can receive these messages and send messages to an iPhone. SMS and MMS lack a lot of capability that people want in messaging systems. SMS was born out of unused space in control messages in the GSM spec. That's why fucking everyone from DoCoMo (i-mode e-mail) to RIM (Blackberry Messenger) to Apple have added some over the top messaging system to phones. SMS is a fallback because it's supported by essentially every carrier. Carriers have tiptoed towards a better messaging standard with RCS but they are at cross purposes with OS vendors and end users. They want a messaging system that allows them to charge per use and the ability to snoop on user messages. So they turned RCS into a mess of a standard and have bungled or slow walked it's rollout. But no, I'm sure it's Apple that caused all the evil in the world.
- navjack27 5y ago
  It's a problem APPLE CREATED! this is texting, plain and simple. Apple decided to do their own thing and call it texting instead of just making their own entire messaging system. Now people are brainwashed... But only in the US really...
  - giantrobot 5y ago
    > Apple decided to do their own thing and call it texting instead of just making their own entire messaging system. They did make their own messaging system. Their Messages (née iMessage) is entirely separate from carrier provided SMS/MMS. It's accessed via the same application as SMS because on early iOS they only supported SMS. The Messages/iMessage features were added to their existing application. Saying "this is texting plain and simple" ignores a ludicrous amount of complexity about the underlying systems. There's nothing plain and simple about text messaging systems. If you're going to bash Apple for supposedly creating problems at least familiarize yourself with the subject.

notriddle 5y ago

RCS is great. They should have done it ten years ago. Sure, ten years ago it probably didn’t seem to matter, but the iPhone 5 already bumped the screen size from 3.5in to 4in the rear camera was already 1080p, and “phablets” were already a term in 2012. It was totally foreseeable that MMS size limits where going to be a problem, if they weren’t already! What a great case of skating where the puck is, instead of skating where it’s headed. RCS existed as a spec, just not implemented by carriers. The fact that Apple, and even Google, are routing around their MMS servers is totally their fault.

giantrobot 5y ago

> Pleaes correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of a single technical reason why "a non iphone in a group chat" has to cause such infuriating levels of inconvenience for everyone involved. SMS/MMS is the lowest common denominator for non-Messages devices. So including a non-Messages device in a group chat means the whole chat needs to be downgraded to SMS. Even if Apple added support for RCS tomorrow, group chats would need to downgrade to it and lose E2EE and rely on the participants carriers to deliver messages just like with SMS. There's no good way for Apple to integrate the shit show of non-Messages protocols in a sane way. Carriers made a mess of RCS in the design, implementation, and deployment. Google has had to run their own RCS backend to allow Android users to actually use RCS thanks to the carriers' bungling and meddling. Even they haven't helped the situation with a decade of half-starts in messaging apps. Blaming Apple is a bit ridiculous. They're not going to spend a billion dollars fixing the problems created by carriers and Google when they already have their own messaging system.

pmontra 5y ago
They created their own messaging system and let SMSes enter it. You can't send an SMS to a WhatsApp group. Problem solved. Of course you can install WhatsApp on any phone but you can't install iMessage on Android so maybe Apple had to let SMSes in.
- giantrobot 5y ago
  > They created their own messaging system and let SMSes enter it. Apple supported SMS before iMessage/Messages existed. Their Messages app didn't even support MMS until iOS 3. It didn't gain the iMessage functionality until iOS 5. Apple supports the global standards of SMS/MMS. Their own Messages service can be disabled entirely so a phone will only send SMS/MMS messages. Just about any phone able to connect to an extant cellular network can receive these messages and send messages to an iPhone. SMS and MMS lack a lot of capability that people want in messaging systems. SMS was born out of unused space in control messages in the GSM spec. That's why fucking everyone from DoCoMo (i-mode e-mail) to RIM (Blackberry Messenger) to Apple have added some over the top messaging system to phones. SMS is a fallback because it's supported by essentially every carrier. Carriers have tiptoed towards a better messaging standard with RCS but they are at cross purposes with OS vendors and end users. They want a messaging system that allows them to charge per use and the ability to snoop on user messages. So they turned RCS into a mess of a standard and have bungled or slow walked it's rollout. But no, I'm sure it's Apple that caused all the evil in the world.
navjack27 5y ago
It's a problem APPLE CREATED! this is texting, plain and simple. Apple decided to do their own thing and call it texting instead of just making their own entire messaging system. Now people are brainwashed... But only in the US really...
- giantrobot 5y ago
  > Apple decided to do their own thing and call it texting instead of just making their own entire messaging system. They did make their own messaging system. Their Messages (née iMessage) is entirely separate from carrier provided SMS/MMS. It's accessed via the same application as SMS because on early iOS they only supported SMS. The Messages/iMessage features were added to their existing application. Saying "this is texting plain and simple" ignores a ludicrous amount of complexity about the underlying systems. There's nothing plain and simple about text messaging systems. If you're going to bash Apple for supposedly creating problems at least familiarize yourself with the subject.