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> Government isn't all good or bad; it is what we want it to be. If we want it to invest in our people, such as through education, health care, housinng, etc.,

by pdonis 5y ago

> Government isn't all good or bad; it is what we want it to be. If we want it to invest in our people, such as through education, health care, housinng, etc., nothing is stopping us. We're not powerless at all. You're obviously living on a different planet than I am, because on the planet I live on, ordinary working people are basically powerless in determining where government spending goes. The government talks a lot about "investing in our people" and other such rhetoric, but its actual track record over decades is very poor.

wolverine876 5y ago
I think the more hyperbolic the statements, the less basis in reality. Voters have plenty of influence where I live, but how do you measure it? What do you mean? What is stopping us from having influence? It's pretty straightforward - politicians who anger their constituents enough get replaced. Generally they stay within the limits. I see that defeatism and quitting prevents you from having influence. It's amazing to see people give away their power, but that's their choice. The biggest problem I perceive is manipulation of the public through disinformation. The defeatism is the biggest source of disinformation. You have all the power, but your enemies have convinced you that you are powerless, to drop your weapons - and you went along with it!
- pdonis 5y ago
  > The biggest problem I perceive is manipulation of the public through disinformation. I agree that this is a problem, but I suspect we disagree sharply about where the most dangerous disinformation is coming from.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    Disinformation isn't a matter of opinion, but crucially a matter of fact. If we disagree about what is disinformation, there's a good chance you are wrong.
    - pdonis 5y ago
      > Disinformation isn't a matter of opinion, but crucially a matter of fact. If you mean that disinformation involves either misrepresenting facts, or (much more common and much more insidious) carefully choosing which perfectly valid facts to highlight and which ones to ignore, yes, I agree that's true. But the excuse disinformers always hide behind when called out on this is that choosing which facts to present always involves matters of opinion and judgment--after all, there are so many facts that it's impossible to present them all, so everyone has to pick and choose. And that is true: there are too many facts to present them all. That's why disinformation is so hard to combat: because there can never be an objective test for it. It's always going to come down to one person's opinion against another about whether a given presentation is a fair one or not. > If we disagree about what is disinformation, there's a good chance you are wrong. Huh? I'm the only one who could be wrong if we disagree? Who gave you papal infallibility?
      - wolverine876 5y ago
        The facts! Attempting to cast facts as opinion is classic propaganda. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.
        pdonis 5y ago
        > Attempting to cast facts as opinion is classic propaganda. So is stating your opinions and claiming they are facts. And so is shouting out certain facts loudly, in order to distract attention from other facts that you don't want people to pay attention to. And so is accusing someone else of doing one of these things, loudly, in order to keep people from noticing that you are doing another.

by pdonis 5y ago

wolverine876 5y ago

I think the more hyperbolic the statements, the less basis in reality. Voters have plenty of influence where I live, but how do you measure it? What do you mean? What is stopping us from having influence? It's pretty straightforward - politicians who anger their constituents enough get replaced. Generally they stay within the limits. I see that defeatism and quitting prevents you from having influence. It's amazing to see people give away their power, but that's their choice. The biggest problem I perceive is manipulation of the public through disinformation. The defeatism is the biggest source of disinformation. You have all the power, but your enemies have convinced you that you are powerless, to drop your weapons - and you went along with it!

pdonis 5y ago
> The biggest problem I perceive is manipulation of the public through disinformation. I agree that this is a problem, but I suspect we disagree sharply about where the most dangerous disinformation is coming from.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  Disinformation isn't a matter of opinion, but crucially a matter of fact. If we disagree about what is disinformation, there's a good chance you are wrong.
  - pdonis 5y ago
    > Disinformation isn't a matter of opinion, but crucially a matter of fact. If you mean that disinformation involves either misrepresenting facts, or (much more common and much more insidious) carefully choosing which perfectly valid facts to highlight and which ones to ignore, yes, I agree that's true. But the excuse disinformers always hide behind when called out on this is that choosing which facts to present always involves matters of opinion and judgment--after all, there are so many facts that it's impossible to present them all, so everyone has to pick and choose. And that is true: there are too many facts to present them all. That's why disinformation is so hard to combat: because there can never be an objective test for it. It's always going to come down to one person's opinion against another about whether a given presentation is a fair one or not. > If we disagree about what is disinformation, there's a good chance you are wrong. Huh? I'm the only one who could be wrong if we disagree? Who gave you papal infallibility?
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      The facts! Attempting to cast facts as opinion is classic propaganda. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.
      - pdonis 5y ago
        > Attempting to cast facts as opinion is classic propaganda. So is stating your opinions and claiming they are facts. And so is shouting out certain facts loudly, in order to distract attention from other facts that you don't want people to pay attention to. And so is accusing someone else of doing one of these things, loudly, in order to keep people from noticing that you are doing another.