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> Does the violence against blacks [...] not serve as an example of a "mainstream movement violently opposed to human rights and democracy" within the Christian

by Udo 15y ago

> Does the violence against blacks [...] not serve as an example of a "mainstream movement violently opposed to human rights and democracy" within the Christian faith? I think so, yes. Have I given you reason to believe I would have liked to exclude that? I apologize if I didn't express myself clearly enough. My point was not to single out Islam and/or to absolve any other religion. For the record, I don't have a stake in any of them, either. > I honestly have no idea how the tenants of that religion affect, say, caste violence in India. Neither do I. I think we're on the same page here, just maybe looking at it from different angles. The majority of my post could have been expressed as "what does mainstream mean, anyway?" I did express a belief that violent preachings and principles do have an influence on the behavior of the majority of believers, however. The way I see it from the outside, "moderate" Islam is still pretty radical because it is still in opposition to the principles of a free society. But it's wrong to assume that I wouldn't apply the same reasoning to, say, the Old Testament or whatever. It's not a zero-sum game, one religion's horror does not automatically make the other ones better. And of course, even a peaceful religion can breed violent fanatics. Coming back to the article itself, I think that the FBI would do good to look at the content that is being preached at individual mosques, because I do believe there is a correlation from this to violence perpetrated (not only terrorism per se, but also things like domestic violence) - and to reserve judgement based on some definition of what's mainstream. And yes, I would suggest the same scrutiny for the Westboro Baptist Church.

dalke 15y ago
Indeed, I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "mainstream movement." I get the feeling that most of the the movements for human rights and democracy have little direct justification in religion faith, at least not in the broad strokes where "moderate Islam" is meaningful. By that I mean that I see many strongly religious people who use their faith as justification to prevent voting or public participation from women and minorities. Just like I see those using tenants of their religious faith to justify human rights and democracy. It's hard in the US to make sense of a large portion of the Republican Party - which must certainly be representative of a mainstream movement - without drawing the conclusion that don't have the same sense of human rights as I do, and would prefer that the poor and others in the US have fewer rights and less democratic say. While Martin Luther King Jr. strongly based his views on equality and social rights in his religious faith. What I have difficulty disambiguating is the effect of specifically Saudi oil money promoting the Wahhabism, which seeks a pure Moslem faith, vs. the other Moslem faiths. I also have to believe that the history of British and French control (eg, the Sykes-Picot Agreement) plus the US involvement in Operation Ajax hasn't helped promote democracy. As a comparison, perhaps Turkey or Indonesia are useful ways to see more secular Moslem majority countries.

by Udo 15y ago

dalke 15y ago

Indeed, I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "mainstream movement." I get the feeling that most of the the movements for human rights and democracy have little direct justification in religion faith, at least not in the broad strokes where "moderate Islam" is meaningful. By that I mean that I see many strongly religious people who use their faith as justification to prevent voting or public participation from women and minorities. Just like I see those using tenants of their religious faith to justify human rights and democracy. It's hard in the US to make sense of a large portion of the Republican Party - which must certainly be representative of a mainstream movement - without drawing the conclusion that don't have the same sense of human rights as I do, and would prefer that the poor and others in the US have fewer rights and less democratic say. While Martin Luther King Jr. strongly based his views on equality and social rights in his religious faith. What I have difficulty disambiguating is the effect of specifically Saudi oil money promoting the Wahhabism, which seeks a pure Moslem faith, vs. the other Moslem faiths. I also have to believe that the history of British and French control (eg, the Sykes-Picot Agreement) plus the US involvement in Operation Ajax hasn't helped promote democracy. As a comparison, perhaps Turkey or Indonesia are useful ways to see more secular Moslem majority countries.