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> There's no doubt that poor people sometimes find it very tough to obtain ID Perhaps this is the case, and perhaps not, but I'd like to examine this premise c

> There's no doubt that poor people sometimes find it very tough to obtain ID Perhaps this is the case, and perhaps not, but I'd like to examine this premise closer. Has anybody provided even a single example of a US Citizen who was trying to figure out how to obtain some ID and couldn't figure out the process?

manuelabeledo 5y ago
> Has anybody provided even a single example of a US Citizen who was trying to figure out how to obtain some ID and couldn't figure out the process? Not an US citizen, but a Texas resident. It's not only that the process is painfully complex. For instance, homeless people who don't legally own a gun or can drive a car, are effectively excluded. Same goes for students whose bills are still attached to their families, would have a hard time proving their residence status. If one can go pass this step, providing proof of identity is equally complicated [1]. It's amusing that some of the accepted documents are even harder and way more expensive to obtain, like a passport. Not having a social security number makes the whole process almost impossible to complete. Point is, this shouldn't be this complicated and time consuming. Someone with low income and working two or more jobs, would have a hard time going through the process. [1] https://www.dps.texas.gov/section/driver-license/identification-requirements https://www.dps.texas.gov/section/driver-license/identificat...
- logicalmonster 5y ago
  I appreciate that insight, but with respect, that didn't answer the question that was asked. I'm not asking for a theoretical explanation of the difficulties involved with procuring an ID, I'm asking for a real world example of just one person who couldn't manage to get one. Certainly with such interest in this topic, there's been a journalistic expose that went into the unfortunate story of even one US citizen who was wrongly prevented from getting some kind of ID? If I had even 1 name of somebody who was wrongly deprived of an ID, it would be a lot easier to understand that there's a real issue here.
  - manuelabeledo 5y ago
    > I'm asking for a real world example of just one person who couldn't manage to get one. Same could be said about "widespread voter ID fraud". Given that there are no such examples of this, why would anyone want to push for more stringent voter ID laws? Anyhow, here's an example of why and how such laws target minorities and lower classes: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/voting-rights/how-the-native-american-vote-continues-to-be-suppressed/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r...
    - logicalmonster 5y ago
      > Same could be said about "widespread voter ID fraud". Given that there are no such examples of this, I could make many comments here about the actual election system and how recounts are designed to be worthless, but my biggest argument that I think is completely unassailable is simple: credibility. Do you want to have a credible government or not? Here's a poll from early in 2020 that says that about 59% of Americans distrust the election system. I'm sure you could find many other polls from before and after that show that a non-trivial percentage of Americans have doubts about the election system's honesty. https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-02-13/majority-of-americans-dont-trust-elections-poll https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-02-13/ma... Why wouldn't we want to take the concerns of a non-trivial group seriously and work to address them? The mere fact that there's such establishment resistance to enhancing the security of and ability to audit the election system only adds fuel to the fire that there's something that they want to hide. > why would anyone want to push for more stringent voter ID laws? As long as we're not preventing any valid voters from voting (a legitimate concern of course), what's the argument against making the election process even more credible and secure? Please help me understand that. > Anyhow, here's an example of why and how such laws target minorities and lower classes: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r... Let me start out by saying that this article did not meet my stated criteria of asking for a specific name of somebody who was unable to get an ID. I was very specific in asking for a name because even just one real verifiable example of a person can illustrate the issue. Anyway, I agree that the article does highlight some theoretical issues with applying unnecessary hoops to people. I sincerely hope that all people in uncommon living situations (such as those with nonexistent addresses on an Indian Reservation or living out in the sticks somewhere) have the legal ability to vote. To play Devil's Advocate and be a bit contrarian however, I have to point out this article was a one-sided polemic. The best anecdote from the article about the grandma showed that she was able to vote the same day once she got a little assistance. And the article made a big deal about the distances that poor folks had to travel in order to vote, but the phrase "absentee ballot" doesn't even appear in the article. The article does mention the difficulties with rural mail being slow, but doesn't give even one example where this prevented somebody from voting. I'm certainly going to keep an open mind about the struggles involved in getting ID and voting and I fully agree that any election system that exists should be easily accessible to all valid voters, but I'm not convinced from this article that there's 1 legal citizen out there who can't figure out how to ultimately acquire identification.

manuelabeledo 5y ago

> Has anybody provided even a single example of a US Citizen who was trying to figure out how to obtain some ID and couldn't figure out the process? Not an US citizen, but a Texas resident. It's not only that the process is painfully complex. For instance, homeless people who don't legally own a gun or can drive a car, are effectively excluded. Same goes for students whose bills are still attached to their families, would have a hard time proving their residence status. If one can go pass this step, providing proof of identity is equally complicated [1]. It's amusing that some of the accepted documents are even harder and way more expensive to obtain, like a passport. Not having a social security number makes the whole process almost impossible to complete. Point is, this shouldn't be this complicated and time consuming. Someone with low income and working two or more jobs, would have a hard time going through the process. [1] https://www.dps.texas.gov/section/driver-license/identification-requirements https://www.dps.texas.gov/section/driver-license/identificat...

logicalmonster 5y ago
I appreciate that insight, but with respect, that didn't answer the question that was asked. I'm not asking for a theoretical explanation of the difficulties involved with procuring an ID, I'm asking for a real world example of just one person who couldn't manage to get one. Certainly with such interest in this topic, there's been a journalistic expose that went into the unfortunate story of even one US citizen who was wrongly prevented from getting some kind of ID? If I had even 1 name of somebody who was wrongly deprived of an ID, it would be a lot easier to understand that there's a real issue here.
- manuelabeledo 5y ago
  > I'm asking for a real world example of just one person who couldn't manage to get one. Same could be said about "widespread voter ID fraud". Given that there are no such examples of this, why would anyone want to push for more stringent voter ID laws? Anyhow, here's an example of why and how such laws target minorities and lower classes: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/voting-rights/how-the-native-american-vote-continues-to-be-suppressed/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r...
  - logicalmonster 5y ago
    > Same could be said about "widespread voter ID fraud". Given that there are no such examples of this, I could make many comments here about the actual election system and how recounts are designed to be worthless, but my biggest argument that I think is completely unassailable is simple: credibility. Do you want to have a credible government or not? Here's a poll from early in 2020 that says that about 59% of Americans distrust the election system. I'm sure you could find many other polls from before and after that show that a non-trivial percentage of Americans have doubts about the election system's honesty. https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-02-13/majority-of-americans-dont-trust-elections-poll https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-02-13/ma... Why wouldn't we want to take the concerns of a non-trivial group seriously and work to address them? The mere fact that there's such establishment resistance to enhancing the security of and ability to audit the election system only adds fuel to the fire that there's something that they want to hide. > why would anyone want to push for more stringent voter ID laws? As long as we're not preventing any valid voters from voting (a legitimate concern of course), what's the argument against making the election process even more credible and secure? Please help me understand that. > Anyhow, here's an example of why and how such laws target minorities and lower classes: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r... Let me start out by saying that this article did not meet my stated criteria of asking for a specific name of somebody who was unable to get an ID. I was very specific in asking for a name because even just one real verifiable example of a person can illustrate the issue. Anyway, I agree that the article does highlight some theoretical issues with applying unnecessary hoops to people. I sincerely hope that all people in uncommon living situations (such as those with nonexistent addresses on an Indian Reservation or living out in the sticks somewhere) have the legal ability to vote. To play Devil's Advocate and be a bit contrarian however, I have to point out this article was a one-sided polemic. The best anecdote from the article about the grandma showed that she was able to vote the same day once she got a little assistance. And the article made a big deal about the distances that poor folks had to travel in order to vote, but the phrase "absentee ballot" doesn't even appear in the article. The article does mention the difficulties with rural mail being slow, but doesn't give even one example where this prevented somebody from voting. I'm certainly going to keep an open mind about the struggles involved in getting ID and voting and I fully agree that any election system that exists should be easily accessible to all valid voters, but I'm not convinced from this article that there's 1 legal citizen out there who can't figure out how to ultimately acquire identification.